Jump to content

.

  • entries
    34
  • comments
    257
  • views
    7,473

16 Comments


Recommended Comments

The only thing I disagree with is the comparison with #ThisIsNotUS with #NotAllMen because the idea is not that white people are acting repulsively but that the US as a whole is. I don’t think “us” was meant to mean “white people” I think it means “Americans”. 

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, SWINΞ said:

The only thing I disagree with is the comparison with #ThisIsNotUS with #NotAllMen because the idea is not that white people are acting repulsively but that the US as a whole is. I don’t think “us” was meant to mean “white people” I think it means “Americans”. 

You're right in that #ThisIsNotUs refers to America as a whole, but I still feel like it has the same sentiment as #NotAllMen. People are using it to shift the blame from themselves and act like they had nothing to do with contributing to that culture, which is exactly how #NotAllMen is used. And personally I've only seen white people using that hashtag, probably because most people of color know that it IS us. But I think we're on the same page, other than that!

Link to comment

i think it's important to mention anti-semitism and the unique situation Jews hold in it. In Nazis eyes Jews are not seen as white while PoC don't consider Jews as PoC. This leads to that Jews are completely left out in that discussion and if you look at the Charleottvile nazi demonstration they were especially targeting Jews than anyone else. 

 

For some reason i see leftist people being okay with criticizing the Jewish people and I'm like ????

Link to comment
Quote

Start holding your white family and friends accountable for their bullshit

Both my parents are xenophobes, and although I cut my father out of my life years ago, I communicate with my mother, and she talks shit every damn day (she's also under an influence of my father because she's still married to him who knows why). Nothing really works because she's also a Narcissist psychotype, so no matter what people say or do, she doesn't hold herself accountable for anything. She gaslights me big time, and it's my 'responsibility' for being offended on my own or other people's (xenophobia) account. So honestly none of this just works with her for the reasons above.

Link to comment

Can this be a civil discussion please? Not a back and forth where we (or just you) demonise each other for having different opinions. Maybe we could actually find common ground.

Quote

I keep seeing you ask around about how you can help people of color. Many of you have tried, but you ended up getting dragged for making it about yourself or averting responsibility for being a part of their plight by invoking hashtags such as #ThisIsNotUs (which has quickly become the #NotAllMen of white people laughcry1 ).

But don't the SJWs do the exact a similar thing.

When things like this are posted. 

Spoiler

(Co-founder of BLM Toronto)

Yusra-Tweet.jpg?resize=777,400 

12935249_10154128553633833_1095619529_n.jpg

Or when far left wing people disrupt events and get physical, in attempt to get rid of freedom of speech. 

 

Quote

Start holding your white family and friends accountable for their bullshit. Talk to them about white supremacy, Neo-Nazis, and the alt-right. If they say or do something racist, tell them that it's unacceptable.

They don't even hold their own side accountable for racist shit.

e.g. https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=blm+tweets&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji9IaV8_vVAhVFgLwKHXI0CTcQ_AUICigB&biw=1249&bih=589

Shouldn't we start holding people accountable regardless of race for any genuine racism they express? Or is it completely fine to be racist, just as long as you aren't white.

Quote

white supremacy, Neo-Nazis, and the alt-right.

How are the alt-right in the same sphere as these other two? Right wing doesn't equate to evil. 

Quote

I'm so over my fellow white liberals crying about racism, suddenly getting timid when their racist relatives or friends say something fucked up, and then only complaining about it once they're gone.

I'm so over leftists not calling out the racists on their side.

Quote

Stop making excuses for it.

Stop making excuses for racism towards white people.

Quote

shut them down

How about you have a talk and not think you're inherently right all the time and listen to other people's ideas? "shut them down" sounds like you don't want to give others the right to talk and express their opinions. That sounds like the beginnings of fascism.

 

Also, your attitude is coming off a lot more authoritarian than liberal. 

Liberal and Left wing are different things. Right wing people can be liberals too.

Quote

A major reason that racists are becoming so audacious lately is because they face so few consequences when they openly display that kind of behavior, so let's create some.

Really? Because YouTubers with controversial opinions that go against the left get their videos demonetised regularly. People who question the legitimacy of your narrative are automatically called racists. 

Quote

but that's nothing compared to the violence black people have received for daring to stand up for themselves throughout history.

Most of those people are dead. Most of the oppressors too. If you're gonna bring history into it, shouldn't we look at indentured servitude that primarily affected white individuals and take into consideration that most whites weren't slave owners.

To quote a Vice article:

"Blacks were never close to a majority in America, so it's mathematically impossible for most whites to have owned black slaves. At the peak of black slavery in the South, only 6 percent of Southern whites owned slaves. If you include the white people in the North, it means that only 1.4 percent of white Americans owned black slaves at the HEIGHT of slavery."

Taken from this article that delves into misconceptions about slavery.

Quote

Unfortunately people of color don't have the systemic power and privilege to change the way things are going...but we do.

Black people have all the same rights in the US as whites and this includes voting rights. They can vote. They make up 13.3 percent of the population (source). They have power as a collective. Sure it isn't as much as the white population, but they still have some. Saying otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Quote

It's not their duty to educate you (but if they want to, listen), and asking what you can do to help on Twitter for the sake of looking like a good person is obnoxiously self-serving. "Starting a conversation" is the bare minimum and it doesn't deserve brownie points.

So they want people to agree with them, but they're not bothered to convince them? Sounds like a great way to get people on your side.

Asking what we can do to help and starting a conversation isn't helping and is actually "obnoxiously self serving"? It sounds like according to you, black people don't want us to offer help at all, while somehow helping them at the same time. Does this not seem just a tad ludicrous? 

Link to comment
13 hours ago, Rosé said:

Can this be a civil discussion please? Not a back and forth where we (or just you) demonise each other for having different opinions. Maybe we could actually find common ground.

*downvotes*

*but then asks for civil discussion*

You're not off to a great start. I highly doubt we'll find common ground here, but sure.

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

But don't the SJWs do the exact a similar thing.

When things like this are posted. 

  Reveal hidden contents

(Co-founder of BLM Toronto)

Yusra-Tweet.jpg?resize=777,400 

12935249_10154128553633833_1095619529_n.jpg

Or when far left wing people disrupt events and get physical, in attempt to get rid of freedom of speech. 

What do you mean? How are those tweets examples of white "SJWs" asking how they can help black people but making it about themselves? That's what I was saying and I fail to see the correlation.

The original blog post doesn't even have anything to do with the SJWs you always bring up in debates so I don't even understand what you're trying to argue or what you're doing in here with these tweets and videos honestly. SJWs are like the evil boogeyman at this point.

I agree that people are too uncomfortable having their opinions challenged and listening to opposing viewpoints (maybe this is our common ground?), which are things I find necessary for educational purposes since research and discourse can make you more confident in your own arguments and empathetic to others who disagree but may still be good people (not KKK/Neo-Nazis/white supremacists/alt-right/racists though, who have continuously shown that they have nothing to offer but hate). But frankly I find it hard to sympathize with notorious reactionary troll Milo Yiannopoulos' cameraman of all people. laughcry1

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

They don't even hold their own side accountable for racist shit.

e.g. https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=blm+tweets&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji9IaV8_vVAhVFgLwKHXI0CTcQ_AUICigB&biw=1249&bih=589

Shouldn't we start holding people accountable regardless of race for any genuine racism they express? Or is it completely fine to be racist, just as long as you aren't white.

I can almost guarantee that if you ask the vast majority of "SJWs" what they think of those tweets about raping and killing "white bitches" they'll denounce them. Do you really think they would be okay with condoning violence and abuse against women? And obviously the violence in this video is wrong too but even bringing this up in the first place is exactly what I meant by the #AllLivesMatter crew showing up to derail an important topic. It's fine to talk about these things happening but if the only time people bring it up is when something happens to black people, it looks like they're trying to shift attention to themselves and don't really care about what just happened. It's like going to a funeral and complaining that you just lost someone too as if that's somehow supposed to diminish or redirect everyone else in the room's grief. This blog post is specifically about how white people can help people of color against racism that they face and if you want to make your own then go right ahead because that's all this one is about.

I feel like we have different definitions of racism and different priorities on how it should be responded to, which is why we disagree so much on the subject because that's the root of the whole discussion. I don't think that's ever going to change which is why in the past I've felt seriously debating you would be useless but you asked for it so here we are.

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

How are the alt-right in the same sphere as these other two? Right wing doesn't equate to evil. 

Do you even know what alt-right means? It's a dog-whistle for white nationalism, so no, it's not the same as simply right-wing and yes, it does equate to evil. Richard Spencer popularized the term so he could publicly get away with white supremacy and neo-Nazism with little backlash.

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

I'm so over leftists not calling out the racists on their side.

I too agree that the left can be just as racist (and the other -ists and -phobics) as the right, but probably for different reasons. Like I said, this post isn't about that so feel free to make your own!

And below you said that liberals and left-wingers are two different groups that tend to overlap, which is true, but here you countered my statement about liberals with one about left-wingers as if you were making an equivalency and using them as synonyms.

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

Stop making excuses for racism towards white people.

I'm white and I've lived in America for almost two decades. Not only am I just white, but my skin is very pale and I have blonde hair and blue eyes so I pretty much look Aryan by Hitler's standards. I've traveled to many parts of my country throughout the Northeast, South, and Midwest, interacted with people from all races, ages, and social classes, and never once has there been a single instance where I faced racism whether it was institutional or personal. You could ask any of my white family or friends and you would get the same exact answer. I keep hearing that America is where "racism against white people" is growing but I have yet to encounter it. If it was real, wouldn't I be a prime target due to my very European features? I don't know her, I've never experienced that emotion, I thought she sang or rapped or whatever. If it's not here, then where is it?

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

How about you have a talk and not think you're inherently right all the time and listen to other people's ideas? "shut them down" sounds like you don't want to give others the right to talk and express their opinions. That sounds like the beginnings of fascism.

 

Also, your attitude is coming off a lot more authoritarian than liberal. 

Liberal and Left wing are different things. Right wing people can be liberals too.

I thought this was supposed to be civil? So much for that. rip4 It's kind of funny because that's exactly what people say about you all the time, and here you are now trying to call someone else out for it. That sounds like projection to me.

This isn't about people with simple opposing opinions. I've debated with my own friends on here about stuff and listened to what they had to say and they did the same to me with mutual respect. I do the same all the time in real life. This is about people who are legitimately racist, so yes, I'm going to shut down their argument. You're not allowed to respond back to someone whose views you disagree with? I never said I was suppressing their freedom of speech, just that I would respond. Saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to challenge racist speech sounds more like suppression of free speech to me.

And for your information, I took that political compass test and I'm nowhere near authoritarian and I'm only barely left of center so the slinging around of SJW, fascist, and authoritarian can stop. Thanks! :)

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

Really? Because YouTubers with controversial opinions that go against the left get their videos demonetised regularly. People who question the legitimacy of your narrative are automatically called racists. 

So YouTube's policy regarding videos with inflammatory content accurately reflects the consequences that my entire country faces for being racist? The average person isn't even a YouTuber, so if that's the best example you could come up then that's a pretty low bar and proves my point.

People here don't even get suspended from school for doing something racist unless it was something truly extremely terrible, and even then it's usually only for a few days. Shouldn't people have the freedom to talk back to or stop associating with family, friends, colleagues, and classmates whom they believe subscribe to racist ideologies? Shouldn't universities and businesses have the right to reject potential employees and students as a result of values they've expressed online that they believe will tarnish the reputation or image that the school or company wants to portray to the public? Freedom of speech does not protect the speaker from accountability or consequences for their words, except those from the government of course.

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

Most of those people are dead. Most of the oppressors too. If you're gonna bring history into it, shouldn't we look at indentured servitude that primarily affected white individuals and take into consideration that most whites weren't slave owners.

To quote a Vice article:

"Blacks were never close to a majority in America, so it's mathematically impossible for most whites to have owned black slaves. At the peak of black slavery in the South, only 6 percent of Southern whites owned slaves. If you include the white people in the North, it means that only 1.4 percent of white Americans owned black slaves at the HEIGHT of slavery."

Taken from this article that delves into misconceptions about slavery.

Indentured servants signed contracts. Slaves didn't.

So because only six percent of Southern white people owned slaves, that somehow diminishes "what black people faced for daring to stand up for themselves throughout history" (my exact words)? I wasn't only talking about slavery but also segregation and other systems of racism between the era of slavery and now.

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

Black people have all the same rights in the US as whites and this includes voting rights. They can vote. They make up 13.3 percent of the population (source). They have power as a collective. Sure it isn't as much as the white population, but they still have some. Saying otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

They are considered equal in the eyes of the law, but not society. That is what I meant and it would be intellectually dishonest to deny that.

13 hours ago, Rosé said:

So they want people to agree with them, but they're not bothered to convince them? Sounds like a great way to get people on your side.

Asking what we can do to help and starting a conversation isn't helping and is actually "obnoxiously self serving"? It sounds like according to you, black people don't want us to offer help at all, while somehow helping them at the same time. Does this not seem just a tad ludicrous? 

Why should they have to answer to people who think they should be lynched or enslaved because of their DNA? Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish himself and he'll eat for a lifetime.

It is if you're a famous pop star with millions of Twitter followers who has a long and storied history of riding the coattails of social movements in order to look like a good person. I'm not going to expand on that because this isn't Battlegrounds and I'm not interested in turning this into a stan war.

Link to comment
Quote

The original blog post doesn't even have anything to do with the SJWs you always bring up in debates so I don't even understand what you're trying to argue or what you're doing in here with these tweets and videos honestly. SJWs are like the evil boogeyman at this point.

I was saying that things like #NotAllMen and #ThisIsNotUs are mirrored from the other side who use hashtags like #NotAllFeminists.

Quote

things I find necessary for educational purposes since research and discourse can make you more confident in your own arguments and empathetic to others who disagree but may still be good people (not KKK/Neo-Nazis/white supremacists/alt-right/racists though, who have continuously shown that they have nothing to offer but hate).

I think that on the flip side to those groups are black supremacists, modern feminists, far left wingers and SJWs. I think that even if we disagree with these people, it is still important to hear them out regardless of what extreme they're coming from and not go into the discussions eager to label them. 

I've found that the alt-right actually are generally liberal and share a lot of view points with the left. The perceived 'hate' probably stems from the fact that they only talk about the things they disagree with. I'm sure if they went into detail about their basic opinions on equality and politics that you would have more in common with them than not.

Quote

I can almost guarantee that if you ask the vast majority of "SJWs" what they think of those tweets about raping and killing "white bitches" they'll denounce them. Do you really think they would be okay with condoning violence and abuse women?

I find that a lot of SJWs still condone them, as would the KKK. I think that a lot would feel fine with whites being oppressed, even women. 

Quote

And obviously the violence in this video is wrong too but even bringing this up in the first place is exactly what I meant by the #AllLivesMatter crew showing up to derail an important topic. It's fine to talk about these things happening but if the only time people bring it up is when something happens to black people, it looks like they're trying to shift attention to themselves and don't really care about what just happened.

I think that's a contradiction. We shouldn't try to derail a "black rights movement" when they start being racist and committing hate crimes by starting a conversation about all race equality, but you can talk about it, as long as blacks are being victimised at the time. I don't think white people are bringing it back to themselves. I think they're being inclusive to all races and open to discussion about all racial inequalities when they post #AllLivesMatter.

Quote

Do you even know what alt-right means? It's a dog-whistle for white nationalism, so no, it's not the same as simply right-wing and yes, it does equate to evil. Richard Spencer popularized the term so he could publicly get away with white supremacy and neo-Nazism with little backlash.

'Alternative' anything means that the group is likely varied, as in genre music in the alternative genre is diverse. So, a lot of alt right people probably disagree on things than most people on other points on the political spectrum. I don't think it's fair to paint them all like this when you have figures like Blaire White and Theryn Meyer, who are trans women who agree with points from the left and the right. 

Quote

I too agree that the left can be just as racist (and the other -ists and -phobics) as the right, but probably for different reasons.

Common ground! 

Quote

And below you said that liberals and left-wingers are two different groups that tend to overlap, which is true, but here you countered my statement about liberals with one about left-wingers as if you were making an equivalency and using them as synonyms.

I may have been mistaking, but it sounded like you were conflating the terms with each other.

Quote

I'm white and I've lived in America for almost two decades. Not only am I just white, but my skin is very pale and I have blonde hair and blue eyes so I pretty much look Aryan by Hitler's standards. I've traveled to many parts of my country throughout the Northeast, South, and Midwest, interacted with people from all races, ages, and social classes, and never once has there been a single instance where I faced racism whether it was institutional or personal. You could ask any of my white family or friends and you would get the same exact answer. I keep hearing that America is where "racism against white people" is growing but I have yet to encounter it. If it was real, wouldn't I be a prime target due to my very European features? I don't know her, I've never experienced that emotion, I thought she sang or rapped or whatever. If it's not here, then where is it?

An anecdote, but I don't see this as entirely invaluable. I actually don't think that racism towards any black or white people is a huge issue. I just want people to be aware that it exists on all sides, towards all sides.

Quote

I thought this was supposed to be civil? So much for that. rip4 It's kind of funny because that's exactly what people say about you all the time, and here you are now trying to call someone else out for it. That sounds like projection to me.

I said you were sounding like an authoritarian and a fascist, not that you were those things. There's a distinct difference.

Quote

You're not allowed to respond back to someone whose views you disagree with? I never said I was suppressing their freedom of speech, just that I would respond. Saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to challenge racist speech sounds more like suppression of free speech to me.

You are. The way you were phrasing it sounded like you were trying to overpower the minority opinion by stomping it out with numbers, apposed to conversation.

Quote

And for your information, I took that political compass test and I'm nowhere near authoritarian and I'm only barely left of center so the slinging around of SJW, fascist, and authoritarian can stop. Thanks! :)

You can still be a authoritarian and fascist on certain issues and not all.

btw I'm left centre-leaning and a halfway libertarian according to the PC test. 

Quote

So YouTube's policy regarding videos with inflammatory content accurately reflects the consequences that my entire country faces for being racist? The average person isn't even a YouTuber, so if that's the best example you could come up then that's a pretty low bar and proves my point.

People here don't even get suspended from school for doing something racist unless it was something truly extremely terrible, and even then it's usually only for a few days. Shouldn't people have the freedom to talk back to or stop associating with family, friends, colleagues, and classmates whom they believe subscribe to racist ideologies?

Far point.

Quote

Shouldn't universities and businesses have the right to reject potential employees and students as a result of values they've expressed online that they believe will tarnish the reputation or image that the school or company wants to portray to the public? Freedom of speech does not protect the speaker from accountability or consequences for their words, except those from the government of course.

I agree that people should be open to the consequences of their words, but not their ideas. If you don't act on your racism, you shouldn't be fired or denied entry into any school.

Quote

Indentured servants signed contracts. Slaves didn't.

So because only six percent of Southern white people owned slaves, that somehow diminishes "what black people faced for daring to stand up for themselves throughout history" (my exact words)? I wasn't only talking about slavery but also segregation and other systems of racism between the era of slavery and now.

Indentured servants were often worked to death, so their masters wouldn't have to pay them.

I just don't think history, especially now when black people have equal rights, is a relevant argument for anything.

Quote

They are considered equal in the eyes of the law, but not society. That is what I meant and it would be intellectually dishonest to deny that.

I'm very interested in this perspective at the moment. Saying they have no institutionalised power is just false though. Anyone who can vote has institutionalised power.

Quote

Why should they have to answer to people who think they should be lynched or enslaved because of their DNA?

I was referring to people in general. The people who want to help.

Quote

It is if you're a famous pop star with millions of Twitter followers who has a long and storied history of riding the coattails of social movements in order to look like a good person. I'm not going to expand on that because this isn't Battlegrounds and I'm not interested in turning this into a stan war.

I agree. I just think your phrasing sounded too general.

 

(Sorry if any of this sounded rushed. I'm busy today)

Link to comment
50 minutes ago, Rosé said:

 

I've found that the alt-right actually are generally liberal and share a lot of view points with the left. The perceived 'hate' probably stems from the fact that they only talk about the things they disagree with. I'm sure if they went into detail about their basic opinions on equality and politics that you would have more in common with them than not.

 

Yeah the left clearly call for the destruction of the Jewish people (I mean some actually do, but still) 

Link to comment
On 8/30/2017 at 10:31 AM, Simón. said:

Yeah the left clearly call for the destruction of the Jewish people (I mean some actually do, but still) 

You're confused. I literally just explained what the alt-right is jj4

Right wing people who don't have fully conventional right wing views. White supremacists, KKK and Nazis are far-right. Alt-right generally take issue with left wingers and right. 

Milo Yiannopoulos is an alt-right gay Jew. He's not calling for the destruction of Jews or the oppression of gays.

Blaire White is an alt-right trans woman. She's not calling for the oppression of trans people.

The alt-right also varies a lot.

Link to comment

I love this! I can't believe Im barely seeing this. lol, good job! i always wanted to speak on this situation but felt it wasn't my place and also twitter can be malicious, making these issues about yourself are dangerous, but I firmly believe I am in the right mind and have been trying my absolute best to not add to the white fuckery. I often want to message black mutuals and ask about certain things, but I never went through with it because it just seems faux, my question was how can i contribute to the rants of black men being homophobic without overstepping my boundaries as someone who isn't black. I decided that it was just best to stay in my lane altogether, but that won't stop me from liking tweets about mysogonist men of ANY color being dragged tea2

I commend you for your well written article and bravery to speak about the situation, it was also a touchy subject imo for white people to speak on black issues, but might I say this might be the most respectable attempt ive ever seen. Thank you for the reassurance and help to guide me to being a decent person @Hermione

Link to comment
2 hours ago, barbiej33p said:

I love this! I can't believe Im barely seeing this. lol, good job! i always wanted to speak on this situation but felt it wasn't my place and also twitter can be malicious, making these issues about yourself are dangerous, but I firmly believe I am in the right mind and have been trying my absolute best to not add to the white fuckery. I often want to message black mutuals and ask about certain things, but I never went through with it because it just seems faux, my question was how can i contribute to the rants of black men being homophobic without overstepping my boundaries as someone who isn't black. I decided that it was just best to stay in my lane altogether, but that won't stop me from liking tweets about mysogonist men of ANY color being dragged tea2

I commend you for your well written article and bravery to speak about the situation, it was also a touchy subject imo for white people to speak on black issues, but might I say this might be the most respectable attempt ive ever seen. Thank you for the reassurance and help to guide me to being a decent person @Hermione

Aw, thank you so much! This was so sweet. <3

I'm glad that something I wrote is helping people reevaluate how they approach these sensitive topics and maybe even inspiring them to have these discussions with their own families. I'll be honest and admit that I used to be the prime example of someone who was afraid to talk to my family about racism, but things have gotten so bad that it's impossible for me to just sit there and try to ignore it any longer. I'm so fed up that I no longer care about the social consequences, and I feel ashamed that things had to go so far in order for me to get to that point. I'm not at all happy with the way that my country/the world is going, and they say that if you want to see widespread change you should start with yourself first. That's why I think it's important that I confront the people I'm close to, I love, and see on a daily basis about these kinds of things. So far it's just baby steps, but I can tell that they're slowly figuring out what is and isn't okay and I think I'm actually getting through to them with our talks. They're starting to show empathy and actually listen instead of just going on tirades about "reverse racism" and how "political correctness is ruining everything" without letting me finish what I'm saying. I never thought that would happen, but you'll never know unless you keep trying.

 

Spoiler

Not even gonna reply to that bullshit about how "the SJWs" are the left-wing equivalent of the KKK, "the alt-right is generally liberal," and "racism isn't a huge issue." Once was enough for me, but someone else can bite if they want. laughcry1

 

Link to comment
Guest
Add a comment...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×