Earth Ripper

Well, I don't think anyone's saying Positions is super creative and out of the box. I myself said it was a casual continuation of her well-known momentum, so it was already implied in what I said. But to just call it "basic" and "bland" You're right, Ghosttown was extremely basic. Basic as in Eurovision 2006 basic. Positions is not that. Positions is just one more well executed Ariana song. Not more, not less. But definitely not a song I think we should be using as an example of what's "bland and basic" in 2020. We have plenty of other pop releases so far to be eligible

Casual, extremely well-executed continuation of her amazing career. Like she never left, which is perfect. She didn't need a comeback because... she never stopped slaying. The song is great, the production is stellar, the music video is impressively directed (and acted, well done, Ari),... I'm living Completely satisfied. This album is gonna be great. Ari's suffered these "bland", "boring", "same old" etc. reviews for years now because gay men still have a hard time wrapping their head around R&B (or anything that doesn't have a Europop chorus/beat or structure, basically) so I'm not surprised to see these reactions After I've seen countless people saying Sweetener and TUN were downgrades (DOWNGRADES!!!) from DW I've given up on most pop forum commentary on her anyway.

Isn't it just because they literally can't enter the country because of COVID?

Madge. Gaga will be remembered like the Chippendales will be remembered. That silly thing people liked back then, and how did it take so long for it to fizzle out. Who are the people stanning for that shit. Very that

Insane how much impact this one song and video had on her image, and on the public memory of the 80s It will always be one of the greats.

It is really quite stunning how fresh and powerful this production sound still is, especially since it's a genre revival project Fifteen years ago, people. And this could be released today to massive acclaim. Can we say that in 2035 about any of the musical projects of her "successors"?

Her most recent comments, incl. the Stonewall speech, indicate that she no longer identifies as a bisexual even though she still likes girls "sometimes" (literally her words) She was more explicit in the past, but since 2013 she's made more and more statements that throw doubt upon her sexuality. Hence, she could never be considered "openly bisexual".

What in the world. I don't feel like this is true. How can you say in one breath that everyone knows Madonna is a poor singer and then say she became famous for singing? I think she became famous for her songs and her act (and her personality), not her vocals. Eh... maybe. In a footnote. The problem is Gaga very quickly dropped her outlandish persona and her provoking performance style (no, Chromatica is a not a return) herself as soon as it stopped working to make money I mean, the last six years have been Gaga stripped down to the bare minimum. That's literally half of her career. Any formula she might have inspired for future artists didn't work for herself, so I don't see how she'll be remembered for it. I mean, of course she will be remembered for it, and will be seen as the main representative of that short period of time where pop became "weird" again, but that's different from being remembered as an outlandish pop provocateuse ICON that can stand next to figures like Grace Jones, Björk, Madonna,... She dropped the ball too soon to really make a mark outside of what happened to be trendy in 2008-2010 Cackle. I mean, I don't really mind this response because it just shows you haven't listened to a lot of Madonna songs (which you literally admit anyway, so). You're in for a ride then, lol I get your point. I really do. I used to think that way too. But then I just kept waiting for Gaga to unleash that trained pianist musician talent and... we're still stuck with Stupid Loves and Fun Tonights, aka extremely safe and fundamentally unambitious radio pop that many of her peers have already trumped in terms of originality and experimentation Her discography is shockingly weak compared to the talent she does claim to possess. She only has like a handful of songs (I'm thinking of her very good ballads like Brown Eyes, Speechless, Dope,...) that are "serious"ly written enough to prove she is a good songwriter. The fact that she keeps working (more and more, I might add) with professional songwriters or other artists doesn't help either. If she was this Bowie-esque songwriter genius she would've made an album that reflected that already instead of running to BloodPop or Max Martin to fix her own ideas That's not how Madonna worked, ever, in her prime. Also, Shallow is an extremely typical, unoriginal rock ballad. It's very well written, but... who cares if Madonna doesn't have a song like that lol. Meanwhile I can easily name 20 Madonna songs and music videos ánd performances I know for a fact every LM wishes were in Gaga's career I mean, you're half right. Gaga made red carpets exciting again, just like Joan Rivers made people talk about them at all, I'll give credit where it's due (even though in this case that's with the designers—90% of all of Gaga's looks, especially post-2009, are exact replicas of looks that were already shown in fashion weeks in their respective years). She made collaborating with more daring designers more popular, which in turn pushed other designers to design more outlandish and "weird" pieces. That is undeniable indeed. She lit that match. But then, once again, she dropped the ball and now other artists are getting bigger "outrageous fashion looks" lists than she is It was just a trick for her to gain mass momentum and when it didn't translate into instant success anymore she dropped it. She didn't stick to her guns and develop her antics (or replace them with something substantial, not just act all Hollywood celebrity and looking the part like she was completely out of ideas), which is why her "impact" with those antics is questionable to bring up time and time again. That's like Madonna fans still bragging about the cone bra. We know. She's famous for it but she's also famous for 1000 other things, chill. I can't say the same about Gaga. The fact that her fans still have to brag about impact she had and then lost six (more like eight) friggin' years ago is just sad for them. She should've done more in the meantime to deserve her spot among the icons. Anyway, I'm really liking this conversation Not half as pointless or delusional an exchange as I'm used to. Crediting Madge for everything is tiring anyway. At the end of the day the proof is in the quality of her work itself, not her outer accolades or whatever. I quit being a fan of Gaga because I could sense that she was more comfortable simply talking about the fact that she listens to Pink Floyd and Bowie instead of making music that is anywhere near them in terms of quality. Gaga's discography will be almost an appendix to how people talk about her career and that's a shame. And a con.

Oh wow... I mean, I like her more than most people but geez, what a decish. This is gonna be a media disaster

This is true

She's not a vocalist though omg why are you obsessed with coming at her from this angle Vocal standards are the only ones now? What about having something to say through pop music as a female artist? Through the medium of a music video? Through a performance? Those are things she did innovate and every single pop star with an ounce of fame right now would instantly admit to that (in fact, they already have), it's still beyond me why the fanbases of those people are in denial about what is entirely natural to admit for their favs Besides, it's not like Gaga will be remembered as a vocal icon. Trust me, she won't. She's a pop star who happens to be good at singing. Big whoop. She still doesn't hold a candle to any semi-respected Broadway singer, and she has tons of vocal competition among her peers too She won't win. Her technique is above average, to be sure, but not good enough to go down in the history books. While Madonna is going down in the history books for all the unique stuff she did do. Singing a song semi-decently is not unique. It makes her boring, if anything, because these days she's not doing anything special other than singing just fine That won't translate into legacy, I'm afraid. This same angle works for Madonna too, hilariously There's a truckload of statements of people who worked with Madonna (and legit people, not Timberlake or whatever) who explicitly complimented her for her astounding musical skill in the studio. You can Google it to confirm and read the quotes Ok, this is what I found: lol Let's face it, Gaga's "weirdness" only worked because there was room for it (again). We've gone through plenty of eras in the last few decades where "weird" music videos suddenly appeared and then went away again Gaga's "impact" is as relevant to note as it is relevant to note that Madonna reinstigated a temporary disco revival with Confessions. It's laudable and impressive, yes, but it's not a unique contribution whatsoever, since it's literally a rehash of something that's already been done (especially in the case of Gaga, since her "weirdness" was 100% referential to bygone decades, esp. the 70s and 80s) If you're seriously claiming that Gaga is the one we should thank for bringing Billie to us, I mean I-... It's Ava Max that's representing Gaga's formula lol, not Billie. Billie's success is the result of alternative music becoming more and more mainstream, something Gaga did NOTHING to contribute to That is indeed a fact. But again: so what? Is that really going to cement her legendary status? Make her more respected and remembered than Madonna? No. Because it's not impressive. There's thousands of talented singers around, and plenty of them are WAY more talented than Gaga So where does that get you? Nowhere. If Madonna has fallen flat with her vocals sometimes, she still has released far more memorable, far more varied, far more emotional, and far more musically intelligent work than Gaga, and, sadly for you guys, the public knows that

He's not comparing Joanne to ROL or something omg come on We all know we're in a different period. 2012 isn't that far ago. The fact of that matter was that MDNA broke a record for all-time biggest pre-orders and was her highest debut week since 2000. But none of that mattered according to the LMs because she "frauded" her way through that era with tour bundles How can we not compare those situations without analyzing the actual sales?

Being a visionaire who changed the game on every single level (music, music videos, performances, branding, being a businesswoman,...) and upped the standards for literally every pop star who followed in her footsteps Sure, she's praised for her vocals but only until Adele releases some random vocal warm-up and people remember she's completely average again Literally no one credits her for innovating music videos, this isn't 2009 anymore. Same for being a songwriter, lol. Ever since she debuted it's been a joke among critics that the least exciting thing about Gaga as an act is in fact her music (which is 100% accurate, and reflected in the GP's appraisal of her marketing tactics yet not her actual releases) The Oscar was cute but when you combine everything I already said with that win it really makes her more of a public figure or a standard white celeb rather than a music artist people actually care about That will translate into a "legacy" how?

Fantastic visuals. A little more story couldn't hurt but the real problem is those lyrics, welp, they were confusing me so much I just gave up reading them More of this aesthetic though.