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Lemonade Beyhive meltdown

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Just now, John Wayne said:

technically, it can

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

yeah me a white cis man am so oppressed by all the black people in political office

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3 minutes ago, John Wayne said:

technically, it can

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

But is it institutionalized

Q3ad634.jpg

 

Adelephant wouldn't lose for being white demi1

 

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4 hours ago, Jjang said:

The Grammys are notorious for sticking their middle finger to the black community, that's a completely relevant discussion to have, but I think the narrative of the academy not rewarding actual excellence in the first place should be a major theme in the context of that discussion, people are more comfortable debating the race card but no one dares to talk about corruption and the fact that these award shows do not genuinely represent artistic excellence, if we lived in a world free of all issues 95% of these nominees wouldn't be nominated in the first place.

This.

And while I do agree that racism may play a part in it, it's not like Beyoncé didn't win a SHIT TON of Grammys before ST & Lemonade.

It's always easy to play the race card but let's not when black artists are generally more popular and well-respected than most white artists these days. I hate it when "race" comes up in stan wars. It's so ridiculous. 1999 Madonna was nominated up against Lauryn Hill for AOTY and she clearly had the better album on her hand, yet Lauryn got it. Guess we can't really talk about racism here. Pretty sure this wasn't the only time something like this happened.

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8 minutes ago, John Wayne said:

technically, it can

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Absolutely and while there surely is racism towards white people, especially in recent days, it won't really hurt their social status. There is a difference between racism and racial discrimination. I don't think that a white person can be discriminated for being white in a white-dominated country like the US. But people of another race can surely be racist towards them and I've seen that happen A LOT quite honestly. It's definitely hurtful but I think minorities have much worse stereotypes associated with them and are targeted by the police more frequently than white people. It's a fact.

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7 minutes ago, Cruella de Vil said:

This.

And while I do agree that racism may play a part in it, it's not like Beyoncé didn't win a SHIT TON of Grammys before ST & Lemonade.

It's always easy to play the race card but let's not when black artists are generally more popular and well-respected than most white artists these days. I hate it when "race" comes up in stan wars. It's so ridiculous. 1999 Madonna was nominated up against Lauryn Hill for AOTY and she clearly had the better album on her hand, yet Lauryn got it. Guess we can't really talk about racism here. Pretty sure this wasn't the only time something like this happened.

If you think the Accademy would've given Madonna AOTY you're deluded. They snubbed her for YEARS and only recognized ROL because they had no choice.

 

And Like @Naomi Campbell said only 4 out of 22 of Bey's Grammy wins are not from the R&B (read: black) categories and if that isnt telling then I dont know what is.

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8 minutes ago, John Wayne said:

technically, it can

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

That would be an act of prejudice, not racism.

The definition of 'ism' : 

a distinctive practice, system, or philosophy, typically a political ideology or an artistic movement.

In this case, it's a system based on the prejudice of race, the black community is not privileged with a system that benefits of off the prejudice of race and that's quiet the difference lj1

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Of course the Black Panther sympathiser wasnt going to win the AOTY category. The Black Panthers were considered a terrorist organisation by the FBI.

The Grammys is an institution that has been around since the segregated "negro music chart" days. of course they give bey the "urban" categories, just like they give rih. Its a way of appeasing to a community without actually making them your equal. WTF does urban contemporary mean? Urban? Because all black people are impoverished lower class city folk. beyonce is the exact opposite of that, so is rihanna. Smh...

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6 minutes ago, Urbanov said:

2013 - Mumford and Sons over Frank
2014 - Daft Punk over Kendrick
2015 - Beck over Beyonce
2016 - Taylor over Kendrick
2017 - Adele over Beyonce

 

 

Black artists are constantly snubbed and that's the issue. 

it's just that there are more white artists nominated, which makes the chances of a white artist winning higher 

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3 minutes ago, Jjang said:

That would be an act of prejudice, not racism.

The definition of 'ism' : 

a distinctive practice, system, or philosophy, typically a political ideology or an artistic movement.

In this case, it's a system based on the prejudice of race, the black community is not privileged with a system that benefits of off the prejudice of race and that's quiet the difference lj1

Stop it right there!

Racism is not always systematic. In the most basic terms you are racist the very moment you associate stereotypes with people of a "certain race", actually, the moment you seperate the human race (which is one race) into different subraces. 

That said, RACISM is lowkey part of being human. We try to analyze or surroundings and sort everything in categories that make sense to us. There is a reason we have a systematic order for all types of animals and flowers that exist. You can't do that with the human race and as long as people try to point out the differences more than the similarities, we are being racist.

It's really one thing to claim that "all white people have small dicks" and that "all black people have big noses" and another to discriminate people of a "race" within the human race to be "criminals", "savages", "not to be trusted", "loud-mouthed", "with a bad temper", etc... and using that as a reason to make them subject of criminal investigation, not employ them or give them bad grades and shit. DISCRIMINATION is often systematic, not racism.

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2 minutes ago, Cruella de Vil said:

Stop it right there!

Racism is not always systematic. In the most basic terms you are racist the very moment you associate stereotypes with people of a "certain race", actually, the moment you seperate the human race (which is one race) into different subraces. 

That said, RACISM is lowkey part of being human. We try to analyze or surroundings and sort everything in categories that make sense to us. There is a reason we have a systematic order for all types of animals and flowers that exist. You can't do that with the human race and as long as people try to point out the differences more than the similarities, we are being racist.

It's really one thing to claim that "all white people have small dicks" and that "all black people have big noses" and another to discriminate people of a "race" within the human race to be "criminals", "savages", "not to be trusted", "loud-mouthed", "with a bad temper", etc... and using that as a reason to make them subject of criminal investigation, not employ them or give them bad grades and shit. DISCRIMINATION is often systematic, not racism.

Ok so you've describe racism in its most basic form and have explained why it is a good thing., but How does that explain why Beyonce was prevented from winning AOTY over 25 tonnes?

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I can't believe there's even a debate over whether race plays a part in the Grammys selection. What kind of ignorance.... fucking dead. People who "don't see race" act like the world exists without race, that our institutions have no relationship to race, that the construction has no historical record of erasure. Like fuck off. If you don't see it and if statements alluding to its presence make you uncomfortable that's because your privilege is being infringed by your conscience. U mad?

And while I agree the Grammys are shit in the long run and they don't normally award quality to begin with, art appreciation is subjective, so let's not pretend it's anything but fatuous to hide behind the "they don't stan talent anyway" argument. The point is, just like with the Oscars, culture has attributed these institutions with tremendous significance, and the politics of representation they utilize are more meaningful than we would like to admit. If you see one black Barbie on a wall of white Barbies, if you see one black actor win an Oscar out of hundreds of white winners, etc etc--these are messages that connote worth and value to society, whether we like it or not. Of course it's bullshit. But don't conflate it being evil and bullshit with it being impossible. It is. Stop denying it.

Lastly, 25 is a great album. Of course it's formulaic, that doesn't mean it's bad. "Good art" can be innovative or the apex of an established tradition. Both are laudable. The problem here is the damn near ubiquitous consensus that Lemonade was the best album of the year. Most of those who don't agree either don't like Beyoncé or have another pick, but the consensus was clearly in her favor. That it ran in her favor for a political, adventurous body of work makes the loss sting, in addition to being typical. Taylor can win this award twice for the definition of apolitical pop, Adele can win it twice for universal love songs, but a black woman who actually gets acclaim and unapologetically affirms the truth of many aspects of the black experience can't. It's happened twice now. Make what you will of it, but if you don't see the issue then the problem is not just with the institutions of inequality but your perceptions of them.


Posted from my iPhone using the FOTP app

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Ok so you've describe racism in its most basic form and have explained why it is a good thing., but How does that explain why Beyonce was prevented from winning AOTY over 25 tonnes?

That is NOT what I said. orly1

The explanation? 25 selling 20 million records WW and Lemonade selling about 3 million records WW? eve1

Adele having one of the most critically acclaimed and most successful singles last year?

I find it more outrageous that Beck won over her in 2013. Then again, the Grammys would have been accused with being more focused on success than quality music and they probably prefer racism accusations over accusations of being unauthentic. um3

All in all though...does it really matter? What did that Grammy do for Lauryn Hill or Beck? Nothing. Lauryn is currently being a total fucking mess and being in trouble for not paying her fucking taxes. Beck is probably still making music but not any more or less popular than before.
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25 minutes ago, Cruella de Vil said:


That is NOT what I said. orly1

The explanation? 25 selling 20 million records WW and Lemonade selling about 3 million records WW? eve1

Adele having one of the most critically acclaimed and most successful singles last year?

I find it more outrageous that Beck won over her in 2013. Then again, the Grammys would have been accused with being more focused on success than quality music and they probably prefer racism accusations over accusations of being unauthentic. um3

All in all though...does it really matter? What did that Grammy do for Lauryn Hill or Beck? Nothing. Lauryn is currently being a total fucking mess and being in trouble for not paying her fucking taxes. Beck is probably still making music but not any more or less popular than before.

It's not about what the Grammys do for the artist after they received it. The Grammys is considered the upper echelon of music awards. A strong majority of artists consider winning one of these awards as being recognised and praised by their industry peers for their input into music. It has been repeated almost 5 times on this thread alone that lemonade was the superior album when it came to quality, overrall concept and social and political impact. This is an album/era where police officers actually protested doing security for some of her shows. THAT was racism. The Grammys snubbing Lemonade? Racism, pure and simple.

I personally think the songs on it are trash, but as an album, it has had so much influence in 2016 and for it to be considered inferior to Mc25, is a testiment to black being seen inferior to whites

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the funniest thing is that Adele won because she's seen as this superior singer/quality type of artist yet 25 is full of rush recorded songs that sound like 21 b sides (since the original album was scrapped at first)

the only 2 reasons it won album of the year was the artist behind it and its sales

 

despite all the reasons I think Beyonce is overrated there was much more effort put into Lemonade as a project than it was in 25 and it shows

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2 hours ago, John Wayne said:

The beasthive probably doesnt know that racism is a negative movement in society that is not strictly against black people. racism can happen against white people... so if beyoncé won the grammy it wouldve been rasistic towards adele moo3 makes sense beasthive? moo3

This is so stupid dead2 Yes racism is "discrimination towards someone for their race" so it can happen to anyone no matter their skin color but Adele losing wouldn't be about racism, it would be about 25 being the lesser album compared to Lemonade (because tbh even Adele agrees with that). You should win if you have the better album, that's how it should be. Beyonce and Kendrick had the better albums each time they got the nomination, and they lost.

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1 hour ago, Cruella de Vil said:

Stop it right there!

Racism is not always systematic. In the most basic terms you are racist the very moment you associate stereotypes with people of a "certain race", actually, the moment you seperate the human race (which is one race) into different subraces. 

That said, RACISM is lowkey part of being human. We try to analyze or surroundings and sort everything in categories that make sense to us. There is a reason we have a systematic order for all types of animals and flowers that exist. You can't do that with the human race and as long as people try to point out the differences more than the similarities, we are being racist.

It's really one thing to claim that "all white people have small dicks" and that "all black people have big noses" and another to discriminate people of a "race" within the human race to be "criminals", "savages", "not to be trusted", "loud-mouthed", "with a bad temper", etc... and using that as a reason to make them subject of criminal investigation, not employ them or give them bad grades and shit. DISCRIMINATION is often systematic, not racism.

There are many levels of racism, and to equate the lowest form of "making stereotypes" to full on institutional slavery is not valuable. Hence why academics have started to parse the difference, which @Jjang explained in his post. The "ism" part is the crux of racism. It's Prejudice + Power, not simply Prejudice on its own, that's important. 

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11 minutes ago, Vesper said:

There are many levels of racism, and to equate the lowest form of "making stereotypes" to full on institutional slavery is not valuable. Hence why academics have started to parse the difference, which @Jjang explained in his post. The "ism" part is the crux of racism. It's Prejudice + Power, not simply Prejudice on its own, that's important. 

Absolutely sir oprah11

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1 hour ago, Urbanov said:

"Racism is lowkey part of being human" ...

Keep yourself and your bullshit far away from this thread.

Actually he's not entirely wrong. Discrimination or prejudice towards what we percieve different to "us" (family, tribe, country, etc) is an innate survival mechanism and overcoming it's something we LEARN, either directly or indirectly.

 

Humankind as a civilization-maker is like 10k years old iirc, and even if those 10k years had been full of peace and wars didnt exist, it still wouldn't enough to genetically get rid of said mechanism and, unlike religion or sexual orientation, race differences are generally something obvious at first sight so it can trigger the "different, possible enemy" reaction.

 

Anyway, I guess that what Cruella's post is trying to say is that the Grammy comitee perception as (probably) white people is what makes them consider albums with music apealling to them (25, 1989) more worthy of being AotY than albums with "black" music (How to Pimp a Butterfly, Lemonade) rather than an deliverate attempt to keep black artists down or being conciously racist. But given that most of us can recognize the superiority of the latter albums i dont really agree with that. Besides, the shady, attention-whoring nature of Entertainment Industry also has an effect in decision-taking (ie: Had Bey won we wouldn't still be talking about the Grammys)

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