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How can Madonna be considered the queen of pop when she is such a bad live performer?

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6 hours ago, The One Below All said:

Britney level of dancing is SLIGHTLY above Gaga's IMO.

However, this choreo slays so much OMG

 

Gaga’s rhythm is lacking, and her choreography is one whole level easier than britney’s. We did gaga’s Bad romance routine in my hip hop class, and even new students learned it rather quickly. When we did overprotected breakdown and slave 4 u, everyone struggled to get it clean by the end of the class, especially overprotected’s quick rapid fire spins. brit10

 

But yes MATM is amazing choreography. cry1 and it’s way more difficult compared to most pop choreos out there, just saying. brit10 

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3 hours ago, Vesper said:

Pot meet kettle: you calling me stubborn when you literally have shown zero capacity of change or acknowledgement of your mistakes despite evidence. mad4 you saying I’m repeating myself when you’ve done it this entire thread. mad4 you saying I need to have the last word when you literally always respond to any post despite having said “bye” multiple times. mad4 you saying “it’s not that serious” whilst you spend your days trashing Britney on an online forum. mad4 I’m here for my entertainment, seeing you flail about trying to defend your mistakes is hilarious and a good break from work. I’m not the one online attacking a woman you’ve never met and that you will never reach in terms of any valuable life measurements (fortune, fame, talent, legacy...), calling her methney and vegetable and what have you. brit5

I rarely drag artists on here because I respect almost all of them, you see how I didn’t even drag Madonna in this thread? nat2 I’m merely the one online tearing dunning-Kruger babies a new one for fun, you know, people who tries to drag, fails and makes mistakes, then can’t seem to accept that they were wrong and makes a fool out of themselves trying every trick in the book to make themselves “winning”. nat2 I see you hunty. nat2 

So you agree, good. No mistakes were made and it's been proven repeatedly but whatever helps you sleep at night child. Methney stays a mediocre performer and is now a mediocre dancer, xoxo. nat2 

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On 15.1.2018 at 8:52 PM, Vesper said:

Like I’ve said, I love Madonna and her performances, and she’s a great dancer especially compared to a lot of pop artists nowadays like Gaga, Taylor, Katy, etc. 

 

But Britney followed in the vein of Janet, who was arguably the best female pop dancer of our times. And in terms of choreography, I’ve mentioned that I agreed with shutuprae’s initial post showing that Britney / Janet’s dance style are much more complex, fast paced hip hop choreography. Madonna doesn’t really do that style, and in terms of difficulty Britney’s routines are some of the most difficult in pop music. Comparable artists in terms of difficulty of choreography and execution of said choreography would be Janet, Ciara, and JLO. Madonna is a versatile and well trained dancer, obviously, but to me based on the difficulty of choreography, she’s really not the same as the four dancing pop stars I mentioned. 

 

As for britney’s Background, I think she was trained as a child in hip hop / pop choreography, not breakdance. brit10 

You could argue that Britney / Janet / JLO are the best Pop dancers (as in 'hardcore' synchronized routines) but that's not the same as saying they're overall better dancers than Madonna and that's my point. Just because Madonna's trained for different purposes doesn't mean that she's not of the same caliber, that's one, and just because the way Madonna presents herself on stage is different doesn't mean that she's not as capable as Britney, that's two, it's also worth mentioning that Britney / Janet are notorious lip syncers which helps them focus on the dancing aspect of the performance, that's three. oprah14

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10 hours ago, havok said:

So you agree, good. No mistakes were made and it's been proven repeatedly but whatever helps you sleep at night child. Methney stays a mediocre performer and is now a mediocre dancer, xoxo. nat2 

You’re the FOTP equivalent of Kelly Anne Conway, queen of alternative facts. eve1 I’ve always thought Madonna was the superior performer and I never said otherwise. Is she a better dancer though? xtina2 Answer is no. nat1 

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7 hours ago, Jjang said:

You could argue that Britney / Janet / JLO are the best Pop dancers (as in 'hardcore' synchronized routines) but that's not the same as saying they're overall better dancers than Madonna and that's my point. Just because Madonna's trained for different purposes doesn't mean that she's not of the same caliber, that's one, and just because the way Madonna presents herself on stage is different doesn't mean that she's not as capable as Britney, that's two, it's also worth mentioning that Britney / Janet are notorious lip syncers which helps them focus on the dancing aspect of the performance, that's three. oprah14

Good points. rih1 Yes to the first statement, which was my point all along since entering into the thread in response to ShutupRae.oprah14 

But while I agree with your point about Madonna’s capability to do other styles of dance, I still think overall she’s not the same level of dancer as Janet, JLO, Ciara, and Britney because the level of difficulty of her choreography isn’t at the same level. It isn’t analogous to someone like Shakira who excels in Latin / belly dance / modern dance but hasn’t shown aptitude in hip hop / pop choreo, as she’s done many hip hop / pop routines but has only danced, at best, mid-tier choreography in terms of difficulty. I would maybe put Madonna slightly below Beyoncé and slightly above Gaga in terms of difficulty and execution. In terms of choreography, we haven’t seen Madonna perform the same difficulty as the four mentioned girls. 

 

Agreed about the lip sync, though it still remains a hypothetical if Madonna could dance the hardcore choreo Janet and Britney did, as Madonna has lip synced during her harder dance routines as well... Also consider MJ who’s arguably the best pop dancer, but he also lip synced throughout most of his most hardcore routines. moo1 

 

Again, don’t get me wrong, I love Madonna and her performances. I’m mainly speaking of difficulty of choreography, regardless of “style”. brit10 

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On 16.1.2018 at 8:33 PM, Vesper said:

Good points. rih1 Yes to the first statement, which was my point all along since entering into the thread in response to ShutupRae.oprah14 

But while I agree with your point about Madonna’s capability to do other styles of dance, I still think overall she’s not the same level of dancer as Janet, JLO, Ciara, and Britney because the level of difficulty of her choreography isn’t at the same level. It isn’t analogous to someone like Shakira who excels in Latin / belly dance / modern dance but hasn’t shown aptitude in hip hop / pop choreo, as she’s done many hip hop / pop routines but has only danced, at best, mid-tier choreography in terms of difficulty. I would maybe put Madonna slightly below Beyoncé and slightly above Gaga in terms of difficulty and execution. In terms of choreography, we haven’t seen Madonna perform the same difficulty as the four mentioned girls. 

 

Agreed about the lip sync, though it still remains a hypothetical if Madonna could dance the hardcore choreo Janet and Britney did, as Madonna has lip synced during her harder dance routines as well... Also consider MJ who’s arguably the best pop dancer, but he also lip synced throughout most of his most hardcore routines. moo1 

 

Again, don’t get me wrong, I love Madonna and her performances. I’m mainly speaking of difficulty of choreography, regardless of “style”. brit10 

But why is she not on the same level when she could do this oprah14

 

The type of choreographies that Janet and Britney execute just does not fit the energy / overall mood of Madonna's music, which is elemental for a Madonna performance : the routine has to portray some sort of dynamic that radiates emotion rather than just hitting your mark. It's not like we don't have evidence of Madonna being a trained classical dancer, she was on her way to becoming a professional one, that's not "slightly" above Gaga, who has no rhythm or basic coordination requirements, and even in their Pop performances - if you take notice, 99% of Gaga's choreographies consist of her standing in the same spot, doing one random movement at a time, she's a graceless dancer, Madonna's performances are far more demanding, please.

When you don't lip sync (which for the most part, she doesn't) you are handed with choreographies that allow you to balance your vocals with movements, meaning more structured. It's done with the intention of reducing the effect it has on your vocals, Britney and Janet rarely worried about that. 

 

You can immediately spot her background as her approach is more elegant but this number is just as demanding as, let's say, I'm A Slave For You's routine, as the movements rely on your whole body language, several movements (foot / hand work) done at once, which requires coordination.

And I mean, she could do this at the age of 54, what makes you think she couldn't execute way harder stuff 30 years younger? aretha1

 

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12 hours ago, Jjang said:

But why is she not on the same level when she could do this oprah14

 

The type of choreographies that Janet and Britney execute just does not fit the energy / overall mood of Madonna's music, which is elemental for a Madonna performance : the routine has to portray some sort of dynamic that radiates emotion rather than just hitting your mark. It's not like we don't have evidence of Madonna being a trained classical dancer, she was on her way to becoming a professional one, that's not "slightly" above Gaga, who has no rhythm or basic coordination requirements, and even in their Pop performances - if you take notice, 99% of Gaga's choreographies consist of her standing in the same spot, doing one random movement at a time, she's a graceless dancer, Madonna's performances are far more demanding, please.

When you don't lip sync (which for the most part, she doesn't) you are handed with choreographies that allow you to balance your vocals with movements, meaning more structured. It's done with the intention of reducing the effect it has on your vocals, Britney and Janet rarely worried about that. 

 

You can immediately spot her background as her approach is more elegant but this number is just as demanding as, let's say, I'm A Slave For You's routine, as the movements rely on your whole body language, several movements (foot / hand work) done at once, which requires coordination.

And I mean, she could do this at the age of 54, what makes you think she couldn't execute way harder stuff 30 years younger? aretha1

 

Do you dance? 

Because when you say things like Vogue’s routine is as difficult as S4U, it makes me think you haven’t actually tried real choreographed dance before.... You realize that “requires coordination” is a basic principle of Dance in general, and it isn’t a special request that makes a routine hard, right? xtina2 

We had a basic voguing course with a street vogue choreographer in NYC once. It was about the same level as Madonna’s routine, so it wasn’t hardcore voguing that you see professional dancers do with splits and duck walks and death drops - mainly hands arms and legs. Madonna’s vogue routine is basic and not nearly as difficult in choreography as S4U. For you to compare it to slave 4 u is kind of delusional, let’s be real. brit10

As for her professional dance training, Britney was also a professionally trained dancer. So we have two professional dancers, one who does hardcore choreo and one who doesn’t. But you’re suggesting that hypothetically Madonna is just as good and can probably do all Britney had done despite never having done it? Sure, if you want to believe that. I don’t have enough convincing evidence from your videos that she can pull of S4U (fast 1/2 count whole arm, leg, body moves), Overprotected (requires splits and 1/2-count spins, something I don’t think I’ve ever seen Madonna do), Boys (difficult final verse choreo), MATM (fast sharp precision moves I haven’t seen Madonna do before...), etc. 

 

Madonna is more than slightly better than Gaga, you’re right. brit10 It’s difficult to compare when you’re separating the one constant - dance style - so I prefer to judge on difficulty of choreography. Britney’s and Janet’s are some of the most difficult for pop dance. Madonna’s are beautiful but simple in terms of choreography, regardless of style. Maybe she is a more emotive dancer, but that is subjective and not as easy to quantify as the difficulty of choreography. Reminds me of figure skating judging where criteria is split between technical and artistic.

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21 hours ago, Vesper said:

Do you dance? 

Because when you say things like Vogue’s routine is as difficult as S4U, it makes me think you haven’t actually tried real choreographed dance before.... You realize that “requires coordination” is a basic principle of Dance in general, and it isn’t a special request that makes a routine hard, right? xtina2 

We had a basic voguing course with a street vogue choreographer in NYC once. It was about the same level as Madonna’s routine, so it wasn’t hardcore voguing that you see professional dancers do with splits and duck walks and death drops - mainly hands arms and legs. Madonna’s vogue routine is basic and not nearly as difficult in choreography as S4U. For you to compare it to slave 4 u is kind of delusional, let’s be real. brit10

As for her professional dance training, Britney was also a professionally trained dancer. So we have two professional dancers, one who does hardcore choreo and one who doesn’t. But you’re suggesting that hypothetically Madonna is just as good and can probably do all Britney had done despite never having done it? Sure, if you want to believe that. I don’t have enough convincing evidence from your videos that she can pull of S4U (fast 1/2 count whole arm, leg, body moves), Overprotected (requires splits and 1/2-count spins, something I don’t think I’ve ever seen Madonna do), Boys (difficult final verse choreo), MATM (fast sharp precision moves I haven’t seen Madonna do before...), etc. 

 

Madonna is more than slightly better than Gaga, you’re right. brit10 It’s difficult to compare when you’re separating the one constant - dance style - so I prefer to judge on difficulty of choreography. Britney’s and Janet’s are some of the most difficult for pop dance. Madonna’s are beautiful but simple in terms of choreography, regardless of style. Maybe she is a more emotive dancer, but that is subjective and not as easy to quantify as the difficulty of choreography. Reminds me of figure skating judging where criteria is split between technical and artistic.

Britney complicated routines can be counted on your right hand' fingers. Madonna is a way superior dancer as @Jjang explained. 

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4 hours ago, The One Below All said:

Britney complicated routines can be counted on your right hand' fingers. Madonna is a way superior dancer as @Jjang explained. 

Not convinced. xtina2 If you had any knowledge of dance then maybe you would understand too? brit10 

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3 hours ago, Vesper said:

Not convinced. xtina2 If you had any knowledge of dance then maybe you would understand too? brit10 

Go watch again the Virgin Tour or the WTG tour and compared it with Britneys' early tours. Then tell me who's the best dancer, i.e. who's being on rhythm. Im sorry but madonna has always had much more rythm in her veins that Britneys has ever.

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2 minutes ago, The One Below All said:

Go watch again the Virgin Tour or the WTG tour and compared it with Britneys' early tours. Then tell me who's the best dancer, i.e. who's being on rhythm. Im sorry but madonna has always had much more rythm in her veins that Britneys has ever.

Compared to Britney’s DWAD and Onyx Hotel tour, Madonna pales in comparison. Sorry but no. brit4 

 

And “being on rhythm” is the sole criteria for dance ability? How about sharpness of execution? How about overall synchronization with backup dancers? How about difficulty of choreography? Because Britney has all of those. Madonna is a great dancer but she especially lacks difficult choreography. brit10 

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Just now, Vesper said:

Compared to Britney’s DWAD and Onyx Hotel tour, Madonna pales in comparison. Sorry but no. brit4 

 

And “being on rhythm” is the sole criteria for dance ability? How about sharpness of execution? How about overall synchronization with backup dancers? How about difficulty of choreography? Because Britney has all of those. Madonna is a great dancer but she especially lacks difficult choreography. brit10 

Not true. Madonna wins over Britney on being on rhythm AND overall synchronization with backup dancers, i.e. the two MOST IMPORTANT factors. mad3

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1 hour ago, The One Below All said:

Not true. Madonna wins over Britney on being on rhythm AND overall synchronization with backup dancers, i.e. the two MOST IMPORTANT factors. mad3

Sure Jan.  mad4 Continue being delusional, I don’t care. mad4 

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what is the argument on this last page? whereas Britney might be slightly more technical the only live words in her shows are the "hi" at the beginning and the "bye" as she goes out for dear life. 

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On 18.1.2018 at 6:03 AM, Vesper said:

Do you dance? 

Because when you say things like Vogue’s routine is as difficult as S4U, it makes me think you haven’t actually tried real choreographed dance before.... You realize that “requires coordination” is a basic principle of Dance in general, and it isn’t a special request that makes a routine hard, right? xtina2 

Sorry for the late reply, didn't have the proper time this week maybe I also forgot this forum existed

I don't consider myself a dancer, but I did attend classes for two years when I was younger and from my experience coordination was key to particularly everything, and believe it or not it will require me more time to learn the Vogue choreography than S4U's  oprah14 Not because one is essentially more difficult than the other, but I think the subtlety in a lot of the movements is a lot harder to master (again, for me) than sharp and aggressive movements of Britney's routine, despite being more packed (notice the pattern : more packed, not more difficult). In my opinion, they both require the same level of skillset, I don't understand why S4U is so much more difficult, like the only additional skill you need to have is belly dancing, legit. oprah14 Honestly Britney's pace is just faster (as her songs are) but she doesn't display anything of a higher caliber, different styles, same skillset. oprah14

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On 18.1.2018 at 6:03 AM, Vesper said:

Britney was also a professionally trained dancer. So we have two professional dancers, one who does hardcore choreo and one who doesn’t. But you’re suggesting that hypothetically Madonna is just as good and can probably do all Britney had done despite never having done it? Sure, if you want to believe that. I don’t have enough convincing evidence from your videos that she can pull of S4U (fast 1/2 count whole arm, leg, body moves), Overprotected (requires splits and 1/2-count spins, something I don’t think I’ve ever seen Madonna do), Boys (difficult final verse choreo), MATM (fast sharp precision moves I haven’t seen Madonna do before...), etc. 

Madonna was a trained classical dancer , again, different backgrounds, different styles. Why is that so hard to grasp? It's much more unnatural to adapt to Pop routines after being trained your entire life for a different purpsoe (and mind you, Madonna never really attempted these type of routines until she was like 25) than to swiftly make that transition as your background compliments it. I'm not saying Madonna could pull Britney's numbers, you don't know she can't either, that's pointless to argue because her type of music and performance style doesn't match Britney's - so why expect the outcome to be the same? wendy4 What songs is she supposed to do hardcore hip hop rooted choreographies to? LAV? LAP? PDP? ROL? Frozen? LIBmad12 What I'm arguing about is you saying that Madonna is not of the same caliber as an overall dancer, which is a distant topic from mere synchronized Pop routines. moo1

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She was a on her way to graduate as a professional dancer, given the most physically demanding performances in her class and you think she can't do a 1/2 count spin and a split? katy1

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I'm sure I'm forgetting a million other examples anyway.

On 18.1.2018 at 6:03 AM, Vesper said:

Britney’s and Janet’s are some of the most difficult for pop dance. Madonna’s are beautiful but simple in terms of choreography, regardless of style. Maybe she is a more emotive dancer, but that is subjective and not as easy to quantify as the difficulty of choreography. Reminds me of figure skating judging where criteria is split between technical and artistic.

Well, the requirements for those type of routines differ from other 'genres' in dance, do you think Bey has what it takes to pull off a classic piece? oprah14 Like I said, It's obvious Janet / Brit offer the most when it comes to the type of choreographies you're talking about, most of their concerts consist of them, but it's still not a convincing enough argument to call them the overall better dancers, period.

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On 16/1/2018 at 8:10 AM, Vesper said:

Madonna’s dancing in those videos was cute, but the choreography was simple compared to what Britney and Janet JLO were doing here. nat1 

Srsl except one performance here, all the others look so simple, like are you for real now? moo3

And Madonna has done difficult choreos too rav1

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On 16/01/2018 at 9:59 PM, Jjang said:

You could argue that Britney / Janet / JLO are the best Pop dancers (as in 'hardcore' synchronized routines) but that's not the same as saying they're overall better dancers than Madonna and that's my point. Just because Madonna's trained for different purposes doesn't mean that she's not of the same caliber, that's one, and just because the way Madonna presents herself on stage is different doesn't mean that she's not as capable as Britney, that's two, it's also worth mentioning that Britney / Janet are notorious lip syncers which helps them focus on the dancing aspect of the performance, that's three. oprah14

IKR it's like saying that hip-hop trained dancers are better than ballet ones brit10 Kinda shallow opinion coming from someone who consider himself as a "dancer" brit5

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On 1/17/2018 at 5:33 AM, Vesper said:

But while I agree with your point about Madonna’s capability to do other styles of dance, I still think overall she’s not the same level of dancer as Janet, JLO, Ciara, and Britney because the level of difficulty of her choreography isn’t at the same level. It isn’t analogous to someone like Shakira who excels in Latin / belly dance / modern dance but hasn’t shown aptitude in hip hop / pop choreo, as she’s done many hip hop / pop routines but has only danced, at best, mid-tier choreography in terms of difficulty. I would maybe put Madonna slightly below Beyoncé and slightly above Gaga in terms of difficulty and execution. In terms of choreography, we haven’t seen Madonna perform the same difficulty as the four mentioned girls. 

well @Vesper, Janet, Britney, Beyoncé and Ciara are exceptional dancers. They slay!!!

yes, Janet, Beyoncé and Ciara are better dancers than Madonna, but Madonna is a slightly better dancer than Britney (IMO, and @Jjang was correct in a way). M has literally STARTED her career as a professional dancer and she can dance everything. but Britney is amazing  too and she can even do backflips.

Shakira and Gaga are good.

JLO is the most overrated dancer ever. I mean shes a good dancer but yall give her way too much credit, yet you give Madonna  basically NO Credit (and she's a better dancer) brit10

Then, look at someone like Paula Abdul, underrated but an excellent dancer and choreographer (even choreographed  Janet). She outdancess them all except  Janet.

 

 

 

 

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