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CalixSpurius

Syrian Civil War: Turkish Forces Capture Afrin

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The units entered Afrin at 8:30 a.m. on March 18, and the Syrian city was under control on the 58th day of the operation, with Turkish and FSA flags raised, Turkish President Erdoğan said, speaking at the commemoration ceremony of the Gallipoli Campaign during World War One in the northwestern Çanakkale province.

Turkey will immediately take the necessary steps to make sure the residents of the city are able to return to their homes as soon as possible, he said.

Turkey launched “Operation Olive Branch” in Syria’s Afrin district on Jan. 20 to clear the region of the YPG, a group Ankara sees as a terror organization for its links to the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK). 

“We will take all necessary steps to bring the people of the region living in our country or other places back to their homes as soon as possible,” he said.

Turkey launched “Operation Olive Branch” in Syria’s Afrin district on Jan. 20 to clear the region of the YPG, a group Ankara sees as a terror organization for its links to the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK).

Erdoğan said a total of 3,603 militants have been “neutralized” since the beginning of the operation. Authorities said 46 Turkish soldiers had been killed and 225 injured.Turkish authorities often use the term “neutralized” to refer to injured, killed, captured and surrendered militants. YPG itself announced around 1500 KIA (Killed inaction) combatants for their name. 

DYkPnWtWAAARz1G.jpg

 

Well, this was very fast. I thought this would have taken much longer after US-media hyped YPG up by constantly repeating stuff like "the only effective force against ISIS". It seems their defence lines collapsed like a house of cards. It's good that there is no collateral damage to the city compared to other operations in Syrian Civil War which left entire cities in ruins.

https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/859h64/obf_are_in_full_control_of_the_afrin_city_photos/
https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/85ayx3/oath_of_turkish_commando_is_chanted_in_afrin_town/
https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/859xla/turkish_special_forces_in_afrin_city_center/

 

Interesting combat footages from operations / No gore

Spoiler

YPG fighters - recoilless shell strike & Turkish Drone surveillance of the same fighters - drone strike neutralizing fighters

Turkish T129 Atak Helicopter hunting YPG Fighters

Turkish Tanks engaging YPG fighters: 

Reddit- translated dialogue of Tank crew Soldier and Commander: 

Spoiler

0:03: (Commander): Fix it and shoot again

0:10: (Soldier): The one next to the house is injured

0:17: (Soldier): Commander, they are all grouped up

0:20: (Soldier): Cmon, right in to the center!

0:22: (Commander): Perfect, Perfect (After hit)

0:25: (Commander): Here, some of them are on the right

0:30: (Soldier): There are some here too

0:30: (Commander): There are some inside the house, at the entrance

0:32: (Soldier): They are moving

0:34: (Soldier): That one also hit

0:35: (Commander): That one also hit

0:36: (Soldier): Hit ,Commander

0:37: (Commander): It hit,hit,hit..

0:40: (Soldier): There are three

0:41: (Commander): Look, they are back on foot

0:43: (Soldier): Movement again!

0:50: (Soldier): They are on the slope that is facing us on the right

0:54: (Commander): Calm down, they (gunners?) have sight

0:57: (Soldier): The one next to the house is wounded

0:57: (Soldier): HIT! ohoho

1:00: (Commander): Awesome, Awesome..Awesome

1:03: (Soldier): Commander, this time they just fucked them hard (laughter)

Turkish Urban Warfare Special Forces checks out houses in formation: 

YPG fighter destroys/heavily damages Turkish Tank with ATGM: 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Simón. said:

So stupid. Turkey is one of the worst countries currently. I'm guessing it will backfire soon enough 

Your language sounds extremely uneducated.

There is no such thing as black or white in this world, nothing as the worst or the best, especially in international politics. Let alone saying such thing without backing it up which is what you're doing. There are only sides that protect their own interest. 

I don't even think you know what "you're guessing it will backfire soon". Care to share it if you know what will backfire soon ? 

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3 minutes ago, CalixSpurius said:

Your language sounds extremely uneducated.

There is no such thing as black or white in this world, nothing as the worst or the best. Let alone saying such thing without backing it up which is what you're doing. There are only sides that protect their own interest. 

I don't even think you know what "you're guessing it will backfire soon". 

Cause you know so much about that conflict. Get off you high horse, Erdogan fan boy kylie2

occupying foreign territories is always negative. And of course it will backfire. The frontal war in Afrin is over. A  Guerilla war will take over. 

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This sounds extremely deluded:

"Well, this was very fast. I thought this would have taken much longer after US-media hyped YPG up by constantly repeating stuff like "the only effective force against ISIS". It seems their defence lines collapsed like a house of cards."

For the following reasons :

1. Afrin is a small city in the north of Syria. You are deluded if u think that a small "victory" in Afrin means the end of the Syria war. 

2. Turkey is way less trustable than US when it comes to human rights and foreign policy. If the US considered the YPG a strategic player against the bigger issue isis then maybe Turkey should have listened to US. Idk but I personally believe that only international cooperation can solve the ongoing war in Syria

3. What will happen to the Syrians who refuse to go back to Afrin? Will Erdogan force them to leave Turkey?

 

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4 minutes ago, Simón. said:

Cause you know so much about that conflict. Get off you high horse, Erdogan fan boy kylie2

occupying foreign territories is always negative. And of course it will backfire. The frontal war in Afrin is over. A  Guerilla war will take over. 

PKK has been fighting a guerrilla war over 40 years in Turkey, they didn't succeed a bit. At the end of every guerrilla war, you gotta have a last stand and start holding territory. Also guerrilla war needs a territory favouring unsupported infantry like mountains or jungles, Afrin doesn't have such territory. 

Even above that, YPG cannot fight a guerrilla war like PKK does with suicide bombings and civil officials assassinations because if they do, US cannot protect them in the eastern cantons which is the only way YPG can cease to hold territory since we have seen how easy Turkish Forces advanced on YPG. 

There is a reason why Iraq and Syria have been perpetual state of internal turmoil. They have no national unity or no political administrative culture. They are colonial administrative divisions that became independent. YPG-held territory is basically US occupation zone. Free Syrian Army-held territory is Turkish occupation zone. It's not hard to see which one is the more benevolent force in the region. Turkish-controlled Syria is the only part of Syria where reconstruction of Syria has started. 

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7 minutes ago, The One Above All said:

This sounds extremely deluded:

"Well, this was very fast. I thought this would have taken much longer after US-media hyped YPG up by constantly repeating stuff like "the only effective force against ISIS". It seems their defence lines collapsed like a house of cards."

For the following reasons :

1. Afrin is a small city in the north of Syria. You are deluded if u think that a small "victory" in Afrin means the end of the Syria war. 

2. Turkey is way less trustable than US when it comes to human rights and foreign policy. If the US considered the YPG a strategic player against the bigger issue isis then maybe Turkey should have listened to US. Idk but I personally believe that only international cooperation can solve the ongoing war in Syria

3. What will happen to the Syrians who refuse to go back to Afrin? Will Erdogan force them to leave Turkey?

 

1- I know Afrin is a small city in the north of Syria. I never said capture of Afrin meant the end of civil war, I have no idea where you got such idea. Capture of Afrin is informational victory above all. YPG is the US-puppet in the region, US-media kept hyping them up into "the only force that could defeat ISIS" to the extent people were saying Afrin would be Turkey's Vietnam etc. The victory is the breaking up that ridiculous perception that YPG is a strong actor in the Syrian Civil War for Turkey. I have never said this was a significant military victory, I have said here before that I expected Turkish Army to take Afrin easily when the outcome of the operation wasn't obvious. 

 

2- US is literally famous for stirring the shit up everywhere in the globe to advance their political interests. US doesn't consider YPG a strategic player, it's just the international excuse to be in Syria (look locals want us to be here) just like Turkey is using Free Syrian Army for the same purpose. Turkey is way more trustable than US. First and foremost, Turks ruled these lands for centuries benevolently during which the region was as stable as anywhere else unlike now aka period of US sponsored conflicts. 

Also PKK/YPG has always been a more serious threat than ISIS to Turkey. Do you have any idea how many civilians YPG/PKK killed in Turkey vs ISIS ? 

 

3- I don't know how Turkish government manages the resettlement policies of refugees but there are 3 million Syrian refugees in Turkey, Afrin is not big to locate such number of people. I don't think it's a matter of forcing anyone, there are enough Syrian refugees who would be willing to move there because they don't speak Turkish. 

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22 minutes ago, CalixSpurius said:

2- US is literally famous for stirring the shit up everywhere in the globe to advance their political interests. US doesn't consider YPG a strategic player, it's just the international excuse to be in Syria (look locals want us to be here) just like Turkey is using Free Syrian Army for the same purpose. Turkey is way more trustable than US. First and foremost, Turks ruled these lands for centuries benevolently during which the region was as stable as anywhere else unlike now aka period of US sponsored conflicts. 

Yeah Armenian genocide is the best example how gentle Turks were in the past. 

Or how they jail journalists if they criticize the government. 

I see there is no point is someone who is brainwashed by AKP-proganda which I won’t even go into detail. 

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36 minutes ago, CalixSpurius said:

1- I know Afrin is a small city in the north of Syria. I never said capture of Afrin meant the end of civil war, I have no idea where you got such idea. Capture of Afrin is informational victory above all. YPG is the US-puppet in the region, US-media kept hyping them up into "the only force that could defeat ISIS" to the extent people were saying Afrin would be Turkey's Vietnam etc. The victory is the breaking up that ridiculous perception that YPG is a strong actor in the Syrian Civil War for Turkey. I have never said this was a significant military victory, I have said here before that I expected Turkish Army to take Afrin easily when the outcome of the operation wasn't obvious. 

 

2- US is literally famous for stirring the shit up everywhere in the globe to advance their political interests. US doesn't consider YPG a strategic player, it's just the international excuse to be in Syria (look locals want us to be here) just like Turkey is using Free Syrian Army for the same purpose. Turkey is way more trustable than US. First and foremost, Turks ruled these lands for centuries benevolently during which the region was as stable as anywhere else unlike now aka period of US sponsored conflicts. 

Also PKK/YPG has always been a more serious threat than ISIS to Turkey. Do you have any idea how many civilians YPG/PKK killed in Turkey vs ISIS ? 

 

3- I don't know how Turkish government manages the resettlement policies of refugees but there are 3 million Syrian refugees in Turkey, Afrin is not big to locate such number of people. I don't think it's a matter of forcing anyone, there are enough Syrian refugees who would be willing to move there because they don't speak Turkish. 

1. Um you mean that you could not forecast the outcome of a fight between the YPG vs the third biggest military power in the world? Ofc Turkey won, but how does that proves that YPG is just a puppet?

2. The why Turkey never apologized for the Armenian genocide? How can u trust a country like that?

Also check the annual report of Amenesty International:

"An ongoing state of emergency set a backdrop for violations of human rights. Dissent was ruthlessly suppressed, with journalists, political activists and human rights defenders among those targeted. Instances of torture continued to be reported (...) Any effective investigation of human rights violations by state officials was prevented by pervasive impunity. Abuses by armed groups continued (...) No resolution was found for the situation of people displaced within the southeast of the country. Turkey continued to host one of the largest refugee populations in the world, with more than 3 million registered Syrian refugees alone, but risks of forcible return persisted."

And why the hell Turkey is planning to reintroduce death penality with a referendum?

But I agree with you on most things you say and US sucks too. Afterall, US never apologized for the Native genocide.

3. The point is that there will be refugees that don't feel ready to go back and they have same human rights as Turkish to stay in Turkish land. 

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37 minutes ago, Simón. said:

Yeah Armenian genocide is the best example how gentle Turks were in the past. 

Or how they jail journalists if they criticize the government. 

I see there is no point is someone who is brainwashed by AKP-proganda which I won’t even go into detail. 

I am not brainwashed by AKP-propaganda you have no idea what you're talking about which is why you keep repeating the same shit over and over again.

 

Turks were gentle in the past towards all minorities as long as they were loyal.

- Unlike Nazis' Anti-Semitism,

- Spanish Inquisition

- Habsburg persecution of protestants

- British starving of Indians for the economic betterment of British people

--> Turks did not apply arbitrary violence to their minorities because of their existential characteristics (because of who they are), they applied violence to those whom they considered as betrayers. Armenian Massacres/Genocide came after Ottoman Armenians' cooperation with Russian Forces on the eastern front of WW1. What do you compare against what ? It's unbelievable how ignorant and propaganda fed all your comments are. Armenian Genocide is nothing like Holocaust, it's an Imperial Reaction to a rebellion. Only reason why it's so popular is because Armenian Genocide is used by Europeans. Is it coincidence that Europe only remembers Armenians whenever Turks give them middle finger ? 5.5 million Muslims died in Balkans during Ottoman contraction, much higher number than Armenian Genocide, not even counting Circassian Genocide by Russians on the caucasus which again, no one talks about because it's all politics. If Turks were not gentle, there wouldn't be any Christians left in Balkans just like Spaniards cleansed their land of Moors. 

 

Challenge me if you can: In European political sphere, Turks are the only nation who practiced any form of tolerance towards minorities before modern ages. Example: Salonica's biggest ethnic group was Jews under Turkish rule, specifically sephardic Jews who fled Spanish Inquisition and came to Turkey. Salonica was called mother of Israel. After Salonica got annexed by Greece, its jewish population fled the city. While Ottomans lost their European holdings, muslims were either expelled or forced to flee with massacres. Their mosques were all converted to churches. Arbitrary violence and discrimination based on one's existence is a European concept, Turks used violence to ones whom they considered betrayers. That's much more gentle than massacring because they are not like you in my opinion. 

 

You're right about jailing journalists. That's the only thing you're right about. 

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11 minutes ago, The One Above All said:

1. Um you mean that you could not forecast the outcome of a fight between the YPG vs the third biggest military power in the world? Ofc Turkey won, but how does that proves that YPG is just a puppet?

2. The why Turkey never apologized for the Armenian genocide? How can u trust a country like that?

Also check the annual report of Amenesty International:

"An ongoing state of emergency set a backdrop for violations of human rights. Dissent was ruthlessly suppressed, with journalists, political activists and human rights defenders among those targeted. Instances of torture continued to be reported (...) Any effective investigation of human rights violations by state officials was prevented by pervasive impunity. Abuses by armed groups continued (...) No resolution was found for the situation of people displaced within the southeast of the country. Turkey continued to host one of the largest refugee populations in the world, with more than 3 million registered Syrian refugees alone, but risks of forcible return persisted."

And why the hell Turkey is planning to reintroduce death penality with a referendum?

But I agree with you on most things you say and US sucks too. Afterall, US never apologized for the Native genocide.

3. The point is that there will be refugees that don't feel ready to go back and they have same human rights as Turkish to stay in Turkish land. 

1- Turkey is not 3rd biggest military power in the world.

I said that I know Turkey would have beaten YPG but many thought differently under the illusion of US propaganda that YPG was so strong because look they could even beat ISIS, in reality beating ISIS was no brainer with Air Support. 

 

2- 5.5 million Turks died in Balkans during Ottoman contraction, about 600k-1.5m Circassian Muslims died during Ottoman contraction (Russian annexation of Caucasus).

Who apologized to Turks ? No one, then why would Turks apologize ? This Armenian Genocide debate is more political above all, there is a reason why it is remembered by Europe when they think Turkey is being naughty. 

Neither that Amnesty report nor Armenian Genocide has anything to do with what we're discussing right now. By the way, be cautious regarding Amnesty reports. Amnesty is a heavily politicized organization that always avoids saying things against US narrative of international politics although I'd agree with most of the stuff said in the specific report but it has nothing to do with Syria. 

Although I said report is mostly right, there is one thing they got wrong. It's not dissent that is being ruthlessly suppressed but treason. Turkish TV is full of political commentary shows where you can see critiques of Erdogan even on national TV, nobody really cares about critiques as long as their critique is constructive. For instance, you won't get arrested for critiquing Erdogan if you say he fucked up the education system but if you critique Erdogan by saying that Turkey should not be doing operations against PKK, then you obviously think betterment of PKK not Turkey. 

What does death penalty have to do anything with this situation ? Capital punishment exists in many countries around the world. By the way, you don't know the context of death penalty discussion. Turkey made capital punishment illegal as part of EU accession reforms; now that Turkey doesn't actively pursue EU-accession policy anymore, Erdogan said that as a reaction. There are no works for such referendum. Plus, constitutional court announced they didn't support capital punishment which is kind way of saying that if government decided to make such referendum, then it would be cancelled by highest judicial authority. 

It's not logical think to that if one country is accused of a genocide and they haven't apologized for it, then they are directly the worst possible nation. What we're discussing here has nothing to do with US past with natives either. You gotta try understanding more than making unidimensional judgements constantly. 

 

3- I don't understand based on what you claim that anyone but Turks have equal rights to Turkish Republic. 

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54 minutes ago, CalixSpurius said:

1- Turkey is not 3rd biggest military power in the world.

I said that I know Turkey would have beaten YPG but many thought differently under the illusion of US propaganda that YPG was so strong because look they could even beat ISIS, in reality beating ISIS was no brainer with Air Support. 

 

2- 5.5 million Turks died in Balkans during Ottoman contraction, about 600k-1.5m Circassian Muslims died during Ottoman contraction (Russian annexation of Caucasus).

Who apologized to Turks ? No one, then why would Turks apologize ? This Armenian Genocide debate is more political above all, there is a reason why it is remembered by Europe when they think Turkey is being naughty. 

Neither that Amnesty report nor Armenian Genocide has anything to do with what we're discussing right now. By the way, be cautious regarding Amnesty reports. Amnesty is a heavily politicized organization that always avoids saying things against US narrative of international politics although I'd agree with most of the stuff said in the specific report but it has nothing to do with Syria. 

Although I said report is mostly right, there is one thing they got wrong. It's not dissent that is being ruthlessly suppressed but treason. Turkish TV is full of political commentary shows where you can see critiques of Erdogan even on national TV, nobody really cares about critiques as long as their critique is constructive. For instance, you won't get arrested for critiquing Erdogan if you say he fucked up the education system but if you critique Erdogan by saying that Turkey should not be doing operations against PKK, then you obviously think betterment of PKK not Turkey. 

What does death penalty have to do anything with this situation ? Capital punishment exists in many countries around the world. By the way, you don't know the context of death penalty discussion. Turkey made capital punishment illegal as part of EU accession reforms; now that Turkey doesn't actively pursue EU-accession policy anymore, Erdogan said that as a reaction. There are no works for such referendum. Plus, constitutional court announced they didn't support capital punishment which is kind way of saying that if government decided to make such referendum, then it would be cancelled by highest judicial authority. 

It's not logical think to that if one country is accused of a genocide and they haven't apologized for it, then they are directly the worst possible nation. What we're discussing here has nothing to do with US past with natives either. You gotta try understanding more than making unidimensional judgements constantly. 

 

3- I don't understand based on what you claim that anyone but Turks have equal rights to Turkish Republic. 

1. Well is number 8...YPG is not even in the top 100. You talk like everything is fine now lmfao syria crisis is far from being over. I don't mean to say that US is better but as long as US, Turkey and Russia will keep fighting in Syria land then Syrian people have the right to remain in Turkey land.

2.I'm truly disgusted by your point of of view. The Armenian genocide is real and to negate historical facts is dumb. The Turks who you talking about died because of war, the Armenian were killed because of their ethnic origin. It is not healthy to play the victim for Turkey: to apologize is something that requires a big strength and if you aware that you have done something bad there are no excuses. Take Germany for instance: not only they have apologized but they have made laws to avoid to repeat the same mistakes. The Nazi genocide is as bad as the Native genocide and as bad as the Armenian genocide. Big lesson: all genocides are equally bad. The is no worse when it comes to human lives. Killing one person is as bad as killing one million of people.

3.  The point is that both EU and US have much more freedom of expression and human rights achievements than Turkey, who is country famous for torture.So when t comes to believe between Erdogan or Trump...well I'm going with Trump. And that's says A LOT. 

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53 minutes ago, The One Above All said:

1. Well is number 8...YPG is not even in the top 100. You talk like everything is fine now lmfao syria crisis is far from being over. I don't mean to say that US is better but as long as US, Turkey and Russia will keep fighting in Syria land then Syrian people have the right to remain in Turkey land.

2.I'm truly disgusted by your point of of view. The Armenian genocide is real and to negate historical facts is dumb. The Turks who you talking about died because of war, the Armenian were killed because of their ethnic origin. It is not healthy to play the victim for Turkey: to apologize is something that requires a big strength and if you aware that you have done something bad there are no excuses. Take Germany for instance: not only they have apologized but they have made laws to avoid to repeat the same mistakes. The Nazi genocide is as bad as the Native genocide and as bad as the Armenian genocide. Big lesson: all genocides are equally bad. The is no worse when it comes to human lives. Killing one person is as bad as killing one million of people.

3.  The point is that both EU and US have much more freedom of expression and human rights achievements than Turkey, who is country famous for torture.So when t comes to believe between Erdogan or Trump...well I'm going with Trump. And that's says A LOT. 

1- Global Firepower is just a 'fun' website. Its rankings aren't facts, there is no such thing as world's 8th best army. Operational capabilities of Armies are conditional. Also Global Firepower do not look at non-state actors like YPG, it's completely stupid to say 'they're not even top 100'. I have never said anything like crisis is close to being over or something, where the fuck do you come up with all these stupid things I have never said ?!?! 

2- OMG, you're unbelievably ignorant. Armenians were deported and killed in retaliation because they rebelled during war time and helped the enemy of the state. They were not killed because of their ethnic origin, you're way too ignorant about the subject. Armenians were as free as a minority could ever be at the time in Ottoman Empire. There were even Armenian ministers / which minority had such equal representation in states back in 19th century ?!?! Armenian Massacres is not comparable to Holocaust. As far as I know, Jews didn't sabotage German armies or fight on the side of enemy in act of treason against the state. Read Manifesto of Armenian Independence movement to learn about organized sabotage of Armenian Militias against the Turks during WW1: https://archive.org/stream/armenianrevolution00katc#page/n0/mode/2up

You shouldn't talk about stuff you don't know and understand which you always do. Have you ever heard of Dunning-Kruger syndrome ? It's unbelievable, you speak like you are the expert about topics even though your knowledge is as deep as wikipedia articles.

3- EU and US might have much more freedom of expression and human rights than Turkey but it doesn't reflect on Syrians. In which case, US invaded a country and actually improved their situation ?!?! EU and US only invade countries to exploit their resources, that's colonialism for you. Turkish Imperialism is based on instincts of a land Empire. If Turkey was to annex parts of Syria, Syrians wouldn't be exploited. Instead, they would have municipal services such as schools, hospitals etc etc which Turkey is already bringing to areas under its control in Syria unlike US. 

Edit: For colonialism remark, settler colonies like Canada and Australia are different than Colonial Mandates like India and Mideast. Just saying considering you think Armenian Genocide and Holocaust are comparable. 

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13 hours ago, CalixSpurius said:

1- Global Firepower is just a 'fun' website. Its rankings aren't facts, there is no such thing as world's 8th best army. Operational capabilities of Armies are conditional. Also Global Firepower do not look at non-state actors like YPG, it's completely stupid to say 'they're not even top 100'. I have never said anything like crisis is close to being over or something, where the fuck do you come up with all these stupid things I have never said ?!?! 

2- OMG, you're unbelievably ignorant. Armenians were deported and killed in retaliation because they rebelled during war time and helped the enemy of the state. They were not killed because of their ethnic origin, you're way too ignorant about the subject. Armenians were as free as a minority could ever be at the time in Ottoman Empire. There were even Armenian ministers / which minority had such equal representation in states back in 19th century ?!?! Armenian Massacres is not comparable to Holocaust. As far as I know, Jews didn't sabotage German armies or fight on the side of enemy in act of treason against the state. Read Manifesto of Armenian Independence movement to learn about organized sabotage of Armenian Militias against the Turks during WW1: https://archive.org/stream/armenianrevolution00katc#page/n0/mode/2up

You shouldn't talk about stuff you don't know and understand which you always do. Have you ever heard of Dunning-Kruger syndrome ? It's unbelievable, you speak like you are the expert about topics even though your knowledge is as deep as wikipedia articles.

3- EU and US might have much more freedom of expression and human rights than Turkey but it doesn't reflect on Syrians. In which case, US invaded a country and actually improved their situation ?!?! EU and US only invade countries to exploit their resources, that's colonialism for you. Turkish Imperialism is based on instincts of a land Empire. If Turkey was to annex parts of Syria, Syrians wouldn't be exploited. Instead, they would have municipal services such as schools, hospitals etc etc which Turkey is already bringing to areas under its control in Syria unlike US. 

Edit: For colonialism remark, settler colonies like Canada and Australia are different than Colonial Mandates like India and Mideast. Just saying considering you think Armenian Genocide and Holocaust are comparable. 

Talking about Holocaust instead of Shoah not only is ignorant but it does support antisemitism. Let me get this straight: I will not engage in any discussion with someone who thinks that Jewish people were sacrificed to the gods by the nazi. That is a very antisemitic and disgusting perspective that it is implied when you use the shittty word Holocaust.

Said that, I am aware to be ignorant about everything but clearly I know much more than you about the Armenian GENOCIDE. As you probably do not know a genocide is defined as the sistematic extermination of people belonging to an ethnic group. Armenian were killed with the same lack of rationality and humanity that nazi used against Jews or Colonialists used agaist Native Americans. Only because the number of Armenians dead is less than the Jews this does not mean that it was less cruel. I can't stand your blind and ignorant point of view. It is not a matter of populations who betray Turkey or the Ottoman empire but it is a matter to admit the bad stuff done in the past in order to achieve international credibility and be trustworthy. The church has apologized for the Native genocide. The Germany has apologized for the Nazi genocide. Turkey plays the victim instead and bring excuses like you did in your comment to justify something that cannot be justified: a genocide, i.e. smth bad regardless everything else.

 

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11 hours ago, CalixSpurius said:

I am not brainwashed by AKP-propaganda you have no idea what you're talking about which is why you keep repeating the same shit over and over again.

 

Exactly that is what every AKP-propagandist says. If you like Turkey so much why don't you go there and live there? 

I know you are half Greek, do you even know what atrocities Turkey done to Greek people? 

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19 hours ago, Simón. said:

Exactly that is what every AKP-propagandist says. If you like Turkey so much why don't you go there and live there? 

I know you are half Greek, do you even know what atrocities Turkey done to Greek people? 

It's unbelievable that you're not even aware that you're the one who's completely brainwashed here. 

 

You don't have tiny bit of objectivity or you're not aware of your lack of knowledge. Only thing your brain can do is to associate every thing with Erdogan. While we're discussing international politics, there are shit ton of layers, Erdogan doesn't decide on Turkish foreign policy himself just like Trump doesn't decide on American foreign policy. There're stuff like military complex and deep state which is super big in Turkey.  

 

I have never said I like Turkey so much. But it's obvious that if there is a country who needs to dominate the region for the stability of MidEast, it's Turkey; that's all I'm saying. I'm throughly interested in these topics and obviously 10 times more knowledgeable than you. Try following sources like geopolitical features or read sensational people like George Friedman to start with (he's a bit over the top but still very relevant). If you love Kurds so much, why don't go live in Rojava ??? 

 

I'm well aware of atrocities Turks have done to Greeks but it's stupid to think Greeks have done absolutely nothing. Just like Turks have massacred Greeks during their Independence War, Greeks massacred Turks, Muslim Arvanites, and Jews during Greek Independence War. This is objectivity you lack in every bit. 

 

Do you I have to hate Turks because they massacred Greeks at some point ? Do I have to hate Greeks because they massacred Jews ? I'm half Jewish as well. I find your your question almost tribal in its implications. Should I hate you too ? You're Germanic in the end, like Nazis. 

 

I know one thing in particular. If it wasn't for the West, Greeks would still be living in Anatolia, and Turks in Greece. West perpetrated the division between Greeks and Turks, they made each nation massacre each nation and swiftly benefitted from it. Good old divide and conquer. For centuries, Greeks lived in these lands when Ottoman state was strong enough to prevent foreign intervention, neither people nor their institutions were humiliated like the West has done. In fact, Greeks were prosperous under Ottoman state because they were the most active group within the Empire with super lucrative Venetian-Ottoman trade. 

It's almost satirical. Even Ottoman governors of Hellene regions (Peloponnese, Macedonia etc) were Greek-speaking. They could speak the language, after the West helped Greece gain its independence, they swiftly put in charge a Bavarian King who couldn't even speak Greek. Even if the Turks subjugated Greek institutions, they never disrespected them like the West did like the 4th crusade: "The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a whore who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels." . This was not a random vengeful act for the record. They have done so because Greeks happened to be Orthodox. I at least know that Turks didn't do such things because of existential characteristics of nations. 

 

Don't quote me back if you don't have anything other than unsubstantiated opinions repeated by all mediocrely educated people on Internet constantly repeat.

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