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WarrenThanksYouAll

No one able to break Madonna's record. why?

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22 minutes ago, Jjang said:

Lmao u mad 

 

3 hours ago, Jjang said:

I'm honored. cry4

I'll only address this part cause the rest is more of the same and you explicitly stated that you have no desire discussing Gaga (but I can lay down my arguments for that one, god knows lmao, it's a matter if you want to which I suppose we'll know by your next reply).

Visuals are associated with Madonna's craft, but what has signified her blueprint is her ability to reinvent. She doesn't just stick to one formula (like Gaga and unfortunately even Beyonce) in the way she presents herself onstage, that's what made her such a notorious figure in Pop culture ; it's in all the history books. 

Her sense of character & her ability to convey a certain picture / emotion / message through whatever she presents to you as a performer (meaning through her showmanship) is her talent, and while it may not spark an "oh wow, she did that!" initial reaction, when you've watched a full tour, gone through all of the phases and revelations you can't help but be amazed at the amount of showmanship you've just witnessed. That's what I chose to focus on when I judge a performer's merit. And while I see Madonna embodying masculinity and femininity, different forms of sexuality, vulnerability, taking on different characters to toy around with I just get the same vibe from Bey, that she's a goddess, which is good but (to me) gets boring at one point. For me, Madonna can't do what Beyonce does and Beyonce cant do what Madonna does either, but the way I see it, it's way easier to immitate Beyonce's performing style than it is with Madonna's, so I go with her as she's more unique.

Think about it this way : do you judge an actor based on a scene or his performance throughout the entire movie? Maybe that's a bad analogy as there is some holes in it but you get the picture. sia2

As for the performance you've listed, I think she's paying homage to the queers in the gay club scene in the 80's that used to lip sync while they're vogueing.

But look how masterfully she executes that idea, anyway, up to this point she never played a role like that and it was something new from her. There's not one dull moment in the performance and her movements (while being very subtle at times) are executed perfectly, her facial expressions, her stance... I know I use her a lot as a counter evidence but can you imagine Gaga attemting that performance? You'd be lying to me if you say you believe she'll reek of the same stage presence / personality. Most of the movements would lose their value or sense of drama 'cause of the lack of timing anyway, it wouldn't be so tongue and cheek just a presentation. Another analogy : think about it this way : If a comedian tells a brilliant joke but lacks comedic timing ; is the joke really executed? Same here. sass4 That's things that Pop fans never paid attention to (unconsciously) and I'd love to make it a topic. 

It's hard to explain that to someone that (obviously out of sheer non interest) is not invested in her artistically, bitch can get super deep, like really sass4

13

 

52 minutes ago, Merryem said:

madonna stans are by far the most pretentious, insufferable, up their own ass people on the planet. imagine writing essays based off of completely subjective criteria and spewing bullshit overanalyzation to try and elevate your fave’s performance or tour to more than it really is. and, while you’re at it, don’t forget to apply your own subjective delusional analysis as to why madonna raising her arm one way is completely different and groundbreaking than any other pop star, accuse those pop stars of “rehashing” what’s been done before (lmao) and then continue on to their 14 different analyzations of what madonna’s performance symbolizes not realizing how completely ridiculous and elitist they sound. y’all are truly the white male philosophy student of the stan world. if i didn’t know better i’d say this is a nathan fielder satire but unfortunately you guys take yourselves very, very seriously.

kylie2 

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11 hours ago, Jjang said:

And I agree that it's debatable that's why I'm debating it... stop trying to paint me out like the bad guy (Chun Li) when I'm being the most realistic here. 

I said, it would take Beyonce 30 + full on stadium shows in order to match S&S non adjusted tour gross, she was already having trouble filling out the last European dates, she had already milked NA to its' full extent, what makes you think that she would be able to tour 30 more stadiums? Back in 2013 she barely filled 50% of the stadiums' capacity in South America, she could max do like 5-6 stadiums in Australia so what's left... Asia? We have no idea what she's capable of pulling off there.

I wasnt callng you a bad guy or implying it sis. All im saying is that Beyonce is really close to Madonna and will get closer over time. I didnt say she would break the record. I mean, she's at 900 million now, im pretty sure she'll cross 1 billion soon and then ist game over. Madonna will keep her title but Bey will have a very high career gross. 

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3 hours ago, Jjang said:

Just repeating what the history books stated, how is that a problem when I'm engaging in a discussion with a willing partner? um1 

what history book kylie2 

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17 hours ago, Jjang said:

you explicitly stated that you have no desire discussing Gaga (but I can lay down my arguments for that one, god knows lmao, it's a matter if you want to which I suppose we'll know by your next reply).

Keep it Gaga free pls, there's no need for us to bring her up when the main conversation revolved around Bey and madge from the start sass4 

17 hours ago, Jjang said:

but what has signified her blueprint is her ability to reinvent. She doesn't just stick to one formula (like Gaga and unfortunately even Beyonce) in the way she presents herself onstage, that's what made her such a notorious figure in Pop culture ; it's in all the history books. 

This is unfair and untrue if we're talking Bey, don't act like she's giving the same meal she gave with "the Beyoncé experience", y'all keep repeating the "it's robotic" shit till y'all believed it is some sort of a fact, but it is not true, she switched things up, her performances shows a steady growth and only an idiot would ignore such an obvious fact sass4 IF we talked re-invention then I can give you like 5 different versions of CIL and how she re-invented everything sass4, just cuz she didn't call it "re-invention" doesn't mean she didn't do it. 

Bey is also a notorious figure in pop culture, it's all in history books, i'm talking 'bout presidential approval and shit, legends only sass4sass4sass4 

17 hours ago, Jjang said:

it's way easier to immitate Beyonce's performing style than it is with Madonna's, so I go with her as she's more unique.

This is far from the truth and very subjective, as it is easier to imitate a production-based performer than a performer who "makes it all about her". Kylie minogue can give you what madge been giving you and with better vocals on top. BEST BELIEVE i won't let the vocals point go anytime soon.  

Case in point:

Madge's performing style is not unique, it's only unique to you, but that's neither here or there since it's your opinion, and you're a stan and you're allowed to be biased i guess, but facts are facts. 

 

17 hours ago, Jjang said:

Think about it this way : do you judge an actor based on a scene or his performance throughout the entire movie? Maybe that's a bad analogy as there is some holes in it but you get the picture. sia2

I get what you're going for but it depends on the category. sass4 Some actors get awarded based on their performance in one scene and some might be awarded for their whole performance during the movie. sass4 Yeah it is a flop analogue since there are plenty of variants, BUT since we're at it, i'd love to point out how i think both of them are such bad actresses (especially 'donna) because they can't seem to turn off their true personas, but let's leave that to another time sass4 

 

17 hours ago, Jjang said:

As for the performance you've listed, I think she's paying homage to the queers in the gay club scene in the 80's that used to lip sync while they're vogueing.

But look how masterfully she executes that idea, anyway, up to this point she never played a role like that and it was something new from her. There's not one dull moment in the performance and her movements (while being very subtle at times) are executed perfectly, her facial expressions, her stance... I know I use her a lot as a counter evidence but can you imagine Gaga attemting that performance? You'd be lying to me if you say you believe she'll reek of the same stage presence / personality. Most of the movements would lose their value or sense of drama 'cause of the lack of timing anyway, it wouldn't be so tongue and cheek just a presentation. Another analogy : think about it this way : If a comedian tells a brilliant joke but lacks comedic timing ; is the joke really executed? Same here. sass4 That's things that Pop fans never paid attention to (unconsciously) and I'd love to make it a topic. 

Listen, i think this is where me and you have a difference in, i feel charisma, personality, depth and all that IN VOCALS, not in production. if you have VOCALS + PRODUCTION then that's an experience to die for. Because if you have the pipes you can show different emotions every time a song gets performed, this is what performing should be about, but if you lack vocals (madge's case), we will get to hear the album version with different outfits EVERY TIME.  That's dull. I more moved by live vocals than by visuals/dance, but that's just me. 

 

Let me give you an example, and since you fail to make it gaga free, there you go:

This performance, to me, is how a pop performance should be done, look like, feel like, be like. You can hear it in her voice, her face, her moves, the stage, the obvious connection with the message she's conveying, the bitch can give you the meal.. so stop discrediting her.. I dare you to say she didn't do her thing, and i will always admire how i can hear her breath through the mic... she gave us great pop moments. STOP. 

To her credit, madge took singing lessons and she has like 3-4 good vocal performances out there, but she's not consistent with it and i am not moved by her vocals in particular, i go to her to witness a production, VISUALS (with amplified backing track). 

i love things like this:

 

NEVER this:

can you hear her here? very annoying. even production can't save her. i'm annoyed with her voice it fucked me up, it distracted me,

 

and with that performance i proved my point to you. (kudos to her for performing like THAT in her age tho clap3 )

 

 

17 hours ago, Jjang said:

 

@Beaux I also think you underestimate her ability to sing + move at the same time sha1 She may not be the greatest vocalist but her voice does the job, its' full of charisma / character and she has vocal presence on stage.

Spoiler

 

 

I can post a billion more jj3

Even if you did, this won't make her come above Bey as the better performer. she just doesn't have the pipes dude, but she makes up for her LACK of vocals, which is good. 

why she uses a deep voice when she attempts to sing in your vids? ugh.

 

In the performance below she had great singing moments, great! but she is not consistent with it... 

 

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20 hours ago, Mistress 9 said:

fall9 off topic but, could somebody give me the background of this legendary emoticon? fall9

It‘s from the Brasilian TV series "Torre de Babel". The character portrayed in that gif is Angela Vidal who is in love with Henry. Henry, however decides to marry Celeste (who has a little son). Angela kidnaps William and threatens to throw him of the building. In the end, she lets go of him and commits suicide.

 

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Sweetener tour is coming to END Madonna! scream1 

Jk, Madonna is THAT touring force & it would be a shame if someone basic & mediocre would break her record. I'm looking at you miss Drake! wat2 

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5 hours ago, Ursula said:

It‘s from the Brasilian TV series "Torre de Babel". The character portrayed in that gif is Angela Vidal who is in love with Henry. Henry, however decides to marry Celeste (who has a little son). Angela kidnaps William and threatens to throw him of the building. In the end, she lets go of him and commits suicide.

 

I love you!

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On 7/19/2018 at 11:42 AM, Beaux said:

Madge's performing style is not unique, it's only unique to you

fall9fall9fall9

Then why did everyone copy her? ew2

I think you have a very primitive and feigned way of looking at performing, honestly. I have no problem admitting that Beyonce is the superior singer, but to me that doesn't make her the better performer. I'm just not keen on this whole "Well, can she sing good? Well, can she serve a choreo? Well... = amazing performer!" I just think there's a lot more to that medium. I mean, based on that formula the Fifth Harmony girls are better performers than Madonna. um1 Like trust me, I'm not an imbecile and I'm very well aware of Madonna's flaws skill wise and have no problem admitting that Bey (who is my 3rd fave female performer of all time, lol, add that to the picture) is probably the best at what she does right now and probably just second to Tina Turner overall. 

To me, performance art is a manifestation of a set of ideologies, an expression of emotional power - and somewhere in that range lies a universe of performance that is not linked to pipes or being a vocal powerhouse and that's what Madonna intelligently capitalized on and embodied as a whole, her sheer ability to execute a vision, provoke, ask questions, make statements in a form of a Pop concert is unparalleled up to this day. What tour (beside Roger Waters' The Wall) holds the same theatrical merit as Madonna's 90's and early 00s tours? (Notice, theatrical, not production or visuals). She was a prime perfect example of mainstream postmodernism, backed up by social scientists, so how is she unique just to me? jj4 And again, Madonna's best tour artistically is presented to you on a mere platform, there was no props or a big stage design, so how is her impact just visuals? ew2 No, she impacted the way Pop stars present themselves on stage, period. 

There is an interesting article I read noting a crucial difference between the two (and it has nothing to do with vocals, just so you know)

"But in some ways Beyoncé’s perfection is an Achilles heel. To revolutionize the music business, playing in the fast lane, being better than everyone, isn’t enough because everything changes in the blink of an eye. Artists must reinvent their brands to stay on top or they will be left behind."

 

Anyway, you have your opinions and I have mine. To me, being provoking and progressive as a performance artist outweighs mere traditional skills to me, it may be different to you if you're there to be fascinated by someone's virtuosity, I'm there to be fascinated by the project as an overall body of work, learn a new perspective and have someone with the star power to carry it all. Different strokes for different folks.

I guess what I'm trying ultimately prove to you is that Beyonce's excellence doesn't come in a way that blocks Madonna's as they both have different ways to present their ideas, whether you'd like to believe that or not. Artistic intent matters to me just like it matters when it comes to music, you don't see people running to claim 'X" artist has better music than 'Y' artist 'cause she or he has a better voice, no, it's about the content and performance art is the same in my book. There are various ways to be meritful, that's the luxury and the privilege of being an artist, you just have to know how to use it and Madonna understood that. I think it's fair enough to call me delusional if some of my sayings were completely groundless but when Academics called her one of the first mainstream performers to manipulate the juxtaposition of sexual and religious themes, or when someone like Janice Min said she redefined what it means to be a female performer, or when Jasmina Tešanović called her the most honest and educated mainstream performer of all time, then I think there's some things to consider here, at least more than "she's just unique to you 'cause you're a biased fan!" 

It's rare that she'd sit down and talk about her show like this, but it's pretty clear that there's a play being told, if you thought that my claims were delusional, now imagine if she sat through the whole show... she could sit down and analyze it for you for an hour... would you honestly be able to do that with a standard Bey concert?

 

============

As for Gaga's 2009 performance, that's where it began and ended for her, after that she just recycled the same ideas and concepts, the way of which she chooses to be 'dramatic' became incredibly repetitive and lost its' first experience shock factor, it's like the sun, you're blinded by it at first but then realize something as simple as a pair of glasses can block it lmao.

 

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^You are only saying why you like Madonna. Her skills are not profound and when most people point that out, her fans feel the need to belittle the superior talents with essays like that. 

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I don’t think any female will ever break that record. It came at the time right after Madonna had scalped the charts for about 25 years and was considered the biggest living icon in pop (behind MJ). Considering these days, even the most popular pop girl will only have a shelf life of about 7 years, i don’t think a tour like this will ever happen again. oprah14 

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11 hours ago, HninSi said:

^You are only saying why you like Madonna. Her skills are not profound and when most people point that out, her fans feel the need to belittle the superior talents with essays like that. 

How am I belittling Beyonce's talent when I called her excellent, my 3rd fave female performer, the best performer right now and overall 2nd best at what she does behind Tina Turner. ew2 

 

Don't call me out when I'm probably the only person on this forum that's in it for an honest discussion (outside of my Mariah trolling which you're clearly upset about lmao). I think it's time for you to tolerate the idea that you're the delusional one hiding behind your do re mi fa sol's and I'm the one that actually takes part in open minded discussions.

 

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10 hours ago, Agugaga said:

I don’t think any female will ever break that record. It came at the time right after Madonna had scalped the charts for about 25 years and was considered the biggest living icon in pop (behind MJ). Considering these days, even the most popular pop girl will only have a shelf life of about 7 years, i don’t think a tour like this will ever happen again. oprah14 

I think the record will be broken one day, touring has never been bigger, we're in the golden age of it actually. And now with the new method of capitalizing on ticket prices based on demand (picture below) it's more likely this record will be broken. It just amazes me that she's held it for so long now, the markets esp. in SA were shitty back in 2008, what would have made her $4m back then would probably make her $7m now.

 

 

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On 7/20/2018 at 8:11 PM, Jjang said:

fall9fall9fall9

Then why did everyone copy her? ew2

I think you have a very primitive and feigned way of looking at performing, honestly. I have no problem admitting that Beyonce is the superior singer, but to me that doesn't make her the better performer. I'm just not keen on this whole "Well, can she sing good? Well, can she serve a choreo? Well... = amazing performer!" I just think there's a lot more to that medium. I mean, based on that formula the Fifth Harmony girls are better performers than Madonna. um1 Like trust me, I'm not an imbecile and I'm very well aware of Madonna's flaws skill wise and have no problem admitting that Bey (who is my 3rd fave female performer of all time, lol, add that to the picture) is probably the best at what she does right now and probably just second to Tina Turner overall. 

To me, performance art is a manifestation of a set of ideologies, an expression of emotional power - and somewhere in that range lies a universe of performance that is not linked to pipes or being a vocal powerhouse and that's what Madonna intelligently capitalized on and embodied as a whole, her sheer ability to execute a vision, provoke, ask questions, make statements in a form of a Pop concert is unparalleled up to this day. What tour (beside Roger Waters' The Wall) holds the same theatrical merit as Madonna's 90's and early 00s tours? (Notice, theatrical, not production or visuals). She was a prime perfect example of mainstream postmodernism, backed up by social scientists, so how is she unique just to me? jj4 And again, Madonna's best tour artistically is presented to you on a mere platform, there was no props or a big stage design, so how is her impact just visuals? ew2 No, she impacted the way Pop stars present themselves on stage, period. 

There is an interesting article I read noting a crucial difference between the two (and it has nothing to do with vocals, just so you know)

"But in some ways Beyoncé’s perfection is an Achilles heel. To revolutionize the music business, playing in the fast lane, being better than everyone, isn’t enough because everything changes in the blink of an eye. Artists must reinvent their brands to stay on top or they will be left behind."

 

Anyway, you have your opinions and I have mine. To me, being provoking and progressive as a performance artist outweighs mere traditional skills to me, it may be different to you if you're there to be fascinated by someone's virtuosity, I'm there to be fascinated by the project as an overall body of work, learn a new perspective and have someone with the star power to carry it all. Different strokes for different folks.

I guess what I'm trying ultimately prove to you is that Beyonce's excellence doesn't come in a way that blocks Madonna's as they both have different ways to present their ideas, whether you'd like to believe that or not. Artistic intent matters to me just like it matters when it comes to music, you don't see people running to claim 'X" artist has better music than 'Y' artist 'cause she or he has a better voice, no, it's about the content and performance art is the same in my book. There are various ways to be meritful, that's the luxury and the privilege of being an artist, you just have to know how to use it and Madonna understood that. I think it's fair enough to call me delusional if some of my sayings were completely groundless but when Academics called her one of the first mainstream performers to manipulate the juxtaposition of sexual and religious themes, or when someone like Janice Min said she redefined what it means to be a female performer, or when Jasmina Tešanović called her the most honest and educated mainstream performer of all time, then I think there's some things to consider here, at least more than "she's just unique to you 'cause you're a biased fan!" 

It's rare that she'd sit down and talk about her show like this, but it's pretty clear that there's a play being told, if you thought that my claims were delusional, now imagine if she sat through the whole show... she could sit down and analyze it for you for an hour... would you honestly be able to do that with a standard Bey concert?

 

============

As for Gaga's 2009 performance, that's where it began and ended for her, after that she just recycled the same ideas and concepts, the way of which she chooses to be 'dramatic' became incredibly repetitive and lost its' first experience shock factor, it's like the sun, you're blinded by it at first but then realize something as simple as a pair of glasses can block it lmao.

 

There are some points you've made and i see them, but yeah, my taste is very different than you and that's okay u know. I can see why you'd prefer madge more, and to place her so high, but honestly i am not like you, i believe many artists can be thought-provoking, many artists can use shock value, many artists can use sexuality the same way madge used it (Example: janet jackson with "Janet." "Rhythm nation" and "the velvet robe"), it can be done by other people, not to discredit madge, but yeah... it can be done, so don't act like it is impossible to be done or even think it is exclusive to madge, it is not. Yes she redefined what it means to be a female performer, but there are other ways to perform beside the madge way, especially when you have natural talents that madge never had.

Her performing style is not unique. sorry. 

Vocal-wise, 5th harmony are better than madge (collectively and separately), but they can't really dance or follow a choreo like how madge would, so they won't give you a SHOW, so oprah14

Madge couldn't capitalize on being a powerhouse vocalist because she is not, she doesn't have IT. 

 

 

Not here for gaga.

17 hours ago, HninSi said:

^You are only saying why you like Madonna. Her skills are not profound and when most people point that out, her fans feel the need to belittle the superior talents with essays like that. 

while he belittle many artists like the typical disrespectful delusional madge stan, thankfully bey is not one of them, he gave her her credits. He's also really good and can express his thoughts in a respectful manner. 

Just to keep it real.

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3 hours ago, Beaux said:

There are some points you've made and i see them, but yeah, my taste is very different than you and that's okay u know. I can see why you'd prefer madge more, and to place her so high, but honestly i am not like you, i believe many artists can be thought-provoking, many artists can use shock value, many artists can use sexuality the same way madge used it (Example: janet jackson with "Janet." "Rhythm nation" and "the velvet robe"), it can be done by other people, not to discredit madge, but yeah... it can be done, so don't act like it is impossible to be done or even think it is exclusive to madge, it is not. Yes she redefined what it means to be a female performer, but there are other ways to perform beside the madge way, especially when you have natural talents that madge never had.

Her performing style is not unique. sorry. 

Vocal-wise, 5th harmony are better than madge (collectively and separately), but they can't really dance or follow a choreo like how madge would, so they won't give you a SHOW, so oprah14

Madge couldn't capitalize on being a powerhouse vocalist because she is not, she doesn't have IT. 

 

 

Not here for gaga.

while he belittle many artists like the typical disrespectful delusional madge stan, thankfully bey is not one of them, he gave her her credits. He's also really good and can express his thoughts in a respectful manner. 

Just to keep it real.

Except I never said it can't be done? um1 I'm just saying so far she's unparalleled in that department and if I want to feel inspired by a vision or a certain story or an artistic sensibility then a Madonna tour is the one to go to 'cause she's the best at it, if I want to be blown away by mere skills, soul and showmanship on stage my first option would be a Tina Turner tour. That's why I said Madonna and Tina are my ultimate faves, despite knowing of Beyonce's capabilities and immense talent. 

I mean, who did I belittle really? I've acknowledged Bey's strength, Gaga's greatness for the mere debut year of her career, it's you guys who are trying to constantly discredit Madonna's vision as something that just anybody can think of or let alone execute, or call her "deep vocals" bad yet act like you're incredibly amazed by that Marry The Night performance accompanied with Gaga's signature witch vocals. jj3 Calling Madonna just a luck act in a nutshell (novelty privilege or whatever) lmao, it's so ironic how I (the supposedly delusional and crazy jealous Madonna fan) actually base my critique on a contextualised thought process (meaning I actually learned Gaga's and Bey's shows) but somehow I'm the unfair mean one when ya'll out there dismissing Madonna's vision (that changed an entire industry) as just another quality any Pop tard can attempt. ew2

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12 hours ago, Jjang said:

Except I never said it can't be done? um1 I'm just saying so far she's unparalleled in that department and if I want to feel inspired by a vision or a certain story or an artistic sensibility then a Madonna tour is the one to go to 'cause she's the best at it, if I want to be blown away by mere skills, soul and showmanship on stage my first option would be a Tina Turner tour. That's why I said Madonna and Tina are my ultimate faves, despite knowing of Beyonce's capabilities and immense talent. 

I mean, who did I belittle really? I've acknowledged Bey's strength, Gaga's greatness for the mere debut year of her career, it's you guys who are trying to constantly discredit Madonna's vision as something that just anybody can think of or let alone execute, or call her "deep vocals" bad yet act like you're incredibly amazed by that Marry The Night performance accompanied with Gaga's signature witch vocals. jj3 Calling Madonna just a luck act in a nutshell (novelty privilege or whatever) lmao, it's so ironic how I (the supposedly delusional and crazy jealous Madonna fan) actually base my critique on a contextualised thought process (meaning I actually learned Gaga's and Bey's shows) but somehow I'm the unfair mean one when ya'll out there dismissing Madonna's vision (that changed an entire industry) as just another quality any Pop tard can attempt. ew2

97% of Madge stans on this forum discredit everyone who's not madonna. Look at how y'all discredit whitney and mariah (who could sing better than madge in their primes), look at how y'all discredit janet (Who can dance better than madge), look at how some of y'all discredit beyonce (not you) .... BUTTTTT you want madge to be left alone? Respect others if you want to be respected.

 

I didn't say you in particular was mean or unfair, i sang you praises and gave you credit, so don't twist my words, as a matter of fact you are probably the only madge stan who sound sane to me while in convos. 

 

Yes luck played a role in her career, that's why she was having a hard time in the 90s when a lot of upcoming female artists were slaying more than her, and she was cracking down writing bitter letters about some of them.  ew2 

Madge had a unique vision, she did, but the other girls had visions too, go listen to "rhythm nation" and tell me it doesn't include a vision that got "executed" in an iconic way. 

 

 

 

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