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Why is Katy's talent so underappreciated?

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14 minutes ago, Merryem said:

this is just absolutely not true dead2 gaga and katy have both had their fair share of cringey lyrics but taylor has definitely joined their ranks after reputation. if anything a star is born showed how great gaga's songwriting abilities still are compared to reputation and witness.

Reputation is still better lyrically than ASIB and 1989/reputation being weaker lyrically doesn’t erase Fearless/Speak Now/Red that are generally considered very well written, definitely more-so than any Gaga record. If anything it just shows how high her standards were dead2 not even knocking Gaga as ASIB is her best album lyrically since TFM and she has her moments but let’s not go overboard especially since she was writing as a character lol

10 minutes ago, Satori said:

I agree with @Taylor that Katy’s songwriting doesn’t, in general, take shape quite as well as Taylor’s. Obviously all the pop girls have cringey lyrics in their discography, but Katy has some truly outstanding material and the other half may be great pop material, but I wouldn’t call it talented songwriting the same way I can Taylor. The only dud album Tay has is Reputation as far as songwriting goes, and even then the good far outweighs the bad. 

 

I DO agree that Katy is unfairly written off though. And that includes plenty of her lyrics which are gorgeous. Plenty of songs on Prism and most of Witness I’d include in this. Her vocals are severely underrated as well. I actually love the slightly flat timre of her voice, because she uses it to great effect to convey emotion on higher notes. 

 

4 minutes ago, Jjang said:

I can definitely see what you and @Taylor mean but I think the overall package works better for Katy. She doesn't mince words and a lot of times she writes lines for the sake of filling them but she knows how to craft a song that brings out her zenith vocally and that's something that you don't experience with Taylor, usually. In that sense, If I went to an acoustic concert of each artist I'm 99% sure Katy would leave a bigger impression on me.

I can agree with both posts here tbh. At the end of the day it just comes down to personal preference. While I think Taylor is a much better writer than Katy (and most of her peers) in a sense of how she constructs songs on such a personal level and tries not to throw in random non-sensical lyrics, many would argue Katy’s style of writing is more effective for them because they either don’t like the wordiness of a lot of Taylor songs or prefer Katy’s vocal takes (like Jjang mentioned). Or some might argue Taylor’s songwriting is almost too ‘perfect’ and formulaic. But that’s cool, different strokes for different folks jj2  

I feel a much bigger personal connection with Taylor’s lyrics but I can agree on one of the main criticisms regarding her — that she doesn’t stray far from her usual topics — and want her to work on. Katy is a more versatile songwriter even if I don’t like her word play or the structural aspect of her lyrics as much as I do Taylor’s.

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3 minutes ago, Madonna said:

Looking back there's honestly more cringe in Gaga's catalogue than anything else, especially in terms of lyrics. ari9 She's incapable of writing a hook that doesn't consist of a staccato using the title of the song.

Should I go on? rih6

ny5

2 minutes ago, Madonna said:

I couldn't decide which of her ballads to put in there. They all work in that sense. lol3 

gaga3 steam Yew (wood) & I now bitch

2 minutes ago, Taylor said:

1989/reputation being weaker lyrically doesn’t erase Fearless/Speak Now/Red that are generally considered very well written, definitely more-so than any Gaga record. If anything it just shows how high her standards were dead2 

clap3tea1

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9 minutes ago, Satori said:

I see what you mean about Katy crafting a song that works for her vocally. I agree and think that’s maybe a slight advantage she has, because I do think her vocal range is more broad than Taylor’s. She has the belts for the pop anthems and that gorgeous feathery high register that she breaks out occasionally, like at the end of Double Rainbow and Miss You More. That’s the sort of moment I was originally referring to. 

 

Tay is much more of a narrative storyteller though; Katy’s lyrics are normally about encapsulating a very clearly distilled emotional theme or feeling, whereas Tay’s more about the journey. As far as vocals though I think Taylor’s definitely learned as the years have gone on how to to write to her strengths vocally. 1989 is the obvious example, and I’m thinking of Wildest Dreams in particular, which is one of the most sublime uses of her voice in my book.  

I think you better expressed the point I was trying to make in the post I just made in response to both you and @Jjang, I’m horrible at describing my thoughts with the proper terms dead2 

Katy and Taylor definitely aren’t similar when it comes to their songwriting, so I think the only way to say who’s better is based on what your personal preference of writing style is. It’s not like Taylor is a Joni Mitchell/Alanis where her supremacy as a songwriter would be undeniable against someone like Katy even though she’s one of the best out of her peers, to me, if that makes sense jj2 

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2 minutes ago, Satori said:

I see what you mean about Katy crafting a song that works for her vocally. I agree and think that’s maybe a slight advantage she has, because I do think her vocal range is more broad than Taylor’s. She has the belts for the pop anthems and that gorgeous feathery high register that she breaks out occasionally, like at the end of Double Rainbow and Miss You More. That’s the sort of moment I was originally referring to. 

 

Tay is much more of a narrative storyteller though; Katy’s lyrics are normally about encapsulating a very clearly distilled emotional theme or feeling, whereas Tay’s more about the journey. As far as vocals though I think Taylor’s definitely learned as the years have gone on how to to write to her strengths vocally. 1989 is the obvious example, and I’m thinking of Wildest Dreams in particular, which is one of the most sublime uses of her voice in my book.  

That's true, but I think that within itself isn't an advantage, just style differences. It's about exploring the crux of matters and I guess both ladies do that. Taylor is more of a lyricist than Katy, that's what you're trying to dig at and I agree. I purposefully write vague OP's for the sake of making room for discussions in the comments but I guess I didn't word it properly - I'm talking about song crafting, which is a multidimensional principle where I believe Katy is equal to/beats Taylor. katy3

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3 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Reputation is still better lyrically than ASIB and 1989/reputation being weaker lyrically doesn’t erase Fearless/Speak Now/Red that are generally considered very well written, definitely more-so than any Gaga record. If anything it just shows how high her standards were dead2 not even knocking Gaga as ASIB is her best album lyrically since TFM and she has her moments but let’s not go overboard especially since she was writing as a character lol

1

No shade but you can't possibly believe reputation is better lyrically than ASIB dead2 even the strongest lyrical tracks on Reputation don't even come match ASIB's weakest moments. Only a handful of tracks on rep display strong songwriting such as delicate, new year's day, getaway car (and even this is debatable). meanwhile you have tracks like LWYMMD, TIWWCHNT, Gorgeous, that HORRID line in CIWYW (not because he owns me! but because he knows me!), IDSB's bridge (they've got their pitchforks and proof! their receipts and reasons!)...these songs easily match any one of gaga or katy's worst written songs. dead2 and most of rep's songwriting is just mediocre and forgettable.

 

I agree that Speak Now/Red has some of the best lyrics of any pop girly but you can't come for Gaga "writing as a character" when all of these albums all talk about the exact same things lyrically. ASIB easily completely outpaces reputation songwriting wise and most of 1989 too. Also I don't agree that TFM was her best lyrical work before ASIB, that title easily goes to BTW.

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13 minutes ago, Madonna said:

Looking back there's honestly more cringe in Gaga's catalogue than anything else, especially in terms of lyrics. ari9 She's incapable of writing a hook that doesn't consist of a staccato using the title of the song.

Should I go on? rih6

there is...literally not a single artist on this forum that isn't guilty of repeating the title of the song for a hook. dead2 

I got the eye of the tiger, a fighter


Dancing through the fire
'Cause I am a champion, and you're gonna hear me roar
Louder, louder than a lion
'Cause I am a champion, and you're gonna hear me roar!
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
You're gonna hear me roar!
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
You're gonna hear me roar!
Roar, roar, roar, roar, roar!

 

This is the part of me


That you’re never gonna ever take away from me, no!
This is the part of me
That you’re never gonna ever take away from me, no!
Throw your sticks and your stones, throw your bombs and your blows
But you’re not gonna break my soul
This is the part of me
That you’re never gonna ever take away from me, no!

 

You're so gay and you don't even like boys


No you don't even like
No you don't even like
No you don't even like boys
You're so gay and you don't even like boys
No you don't even like
No you don't even like
No you don't even like

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Merryem said:

No shade but you can't possibly believe reputation is better lyrically than ASIB dead2 even the strongest lyrical tracks on Reputation don't even come match ASIB's weakest moments. Only a handful of tracks on rep display strong songwriting such as delicate, new year's day, getaway car (and even this is debatable). meanwhile you have tracks like LWYMMD, TIWWCHNT, Gorgeous, that HORRID line in CIWYW (not because he owns me! but because he knows me!), IDSB's bridge (they've got their pitchforks and proof! their receipts and reasons!)...these songs easily match any one of gaga or katy's worst written songs. dead2 and most of rep's songwriting is just mediocre and forgettable.

 

I agree that Speak Now/Red has some of the best lyrics of any pop girly but you can't come for Gaga "writing as a character" when all of these albums all talk about the exact same things lyrically. ASIB easily completely outpaces reputation songwriting wise and most of 1989 too. Also I don't agree that TFM was her best lyrical work before ASIB, that title easily goes to BTW.

First of all, I’m not trying to ‘come for Gaga’ in any sense of the word. I know you think every negative criticism of her automatically is meant as a drag or in a hostile way, but let’s nip that thought in the bud when it comes to this convo sis orangu1 

I agree Reputation is by far her weakest album lyrically. I’ve always preached that and it felt like she was trying to fill in some lyrics on songs because she didn’t really know what to put in them, CIWYW being a top notch example of that which makes the song bad to me. Maybe Reputation is not better than ASIB lyrically and I was jumping the gun, but I still don’t think 1-2 weaker albums lyrically automatically makes Taylor on the same songwriting level as Gaga. She still has more good lyrics than bad lyrics which I feel is not the case for Gaga who — like @Madonna mentioned — is quite honestly horrible at writing choruses that don’t use staccato, and makes them seem underdeveloped. Most of her lyrics on Artpop/Joanne were non-sensical or just weak and I don’t agree that BTW is her best lyrically, that goes to The Fame and then TFM/ASIB to me. Though I’m not saying BTW is particularly horrible lyrically, just in my opinion doesn’t stand as much.

Anyway, I’m not really the type to argue back and forth and I don’t care that much. As I said before it’s different strokes for different folks, and yeah I disagree and am gonna voice my opinion and we can discuss it but if you prefer Gaga’s songwriting style no one can take that away from you jj2 

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21 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Reputation is still better lyrically than ASIB and 1989/reputation being weaker lyrically doesn’t erase Fearless/Speak Now/Red that are generally considered very well written, definitely more-so than any Gaga record. 

I don't know about other lyrics on Fearless album , but Love Story is one of the cringiest songs ever. I honestly don't get the praise. The verses aren't that horrible, but that chorus is so childish. jj2 

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11 minutes ago, Taylor said:

First of all, I’m not trying to ‘come for Gaga’ in any sense of the word. I know you think every negative criticism of her automatically is meant as a drag or in a hostile way, but let’s nip that thought in the bud when it comes to this convo sis orangu1 

I agree Reputation is by far her weakest album lyrically. I’ve always preached that and it felt like she was trying to fill in some lyrics on songs because she didn’t really know what to put in them, CIWYW being a top notch example of that which makes the song bad to me. Maybe Reputation is not better than ASIB lyrically and I was jumping the gun, but I still don’t think 1-2 weaker albums lyrically automatically makes Taylor on the same songwriting level as Gaga. She still has more good lyrics than bad lyrics which I feel is not the case for Gaga who — like @Madonna mentioned — is quite honestly horrible at writing choruses that don’t use staccato, and makes them seem underdeveloped. Most of her lyrics on Artpop/Joanne were non-sensical or just weak and I don’t agree that BTW is her best lyrically, that goes to The Fame and then TFM/ASIB to me. Though I’m not saying BTW is particularly horrible lyrically, just in my opinion doesn’t stand as much.

Anyway, I’m not really the type to argue back and forth and I don’t care that much. As I said before it’s different strokes for different folks, and yeah I disagree and am gonna voice my opinion and we can discuss it but if you prefer Gaga’s songwriting style no one can take that away from you jj2 

1

you said "let's not go overboard especially since she was writing as a character", which is implying her songwriting had to be qualified dead2 I'm pointing out that this was illogical. let's not do this "monsters can't take criticism" talk, it makes you sound like another pressed medonster. there are a lot of valuable criticisms to be had about gaga but that just wasn't one of them lmao.

and again, i agree that Taylor has had a stronger songwriting catalogue than Gaga. but you've been saying reputation is better than ASIB which....I can't really see at all. dead2 Was ARTPOP and Joanne weaker lyrically than her previous work! Yes, just like 1989 and reputation were. also I don't get why staccato choruses suddenly a criticism because it's always been a hallmark of gaga's writing, and is one of the most iconic indicators of her pop songs. just like how taylor relies extremely heavily on narrative songs about heartbreak, gaga relies heavily on staccato choruses. it's not like her verses are the same. dead2 

 

but as you said, different strokes for different folks I guess!

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3 minutes ago, Nocturn said:

I don't know about other lyrics on Fearless album , but Love Story is one of the cringiest songs ever. I honestly don't get the praise. The verses aren't that horrible, but that chorus is so childish. jj2 

True, but she wrote Love Story when she was a teenager and mad at her parents lol, so at like age 16. I’d be more shocked if it wasn’t cringy. The storytelling in the song is one of the best on Fearless (and yes, the verses are great while the chorus/bridge are kind of cringe) but there are other songs which are better as a whole lyrically — the title track, Fifteen, White Horse, and especially Breathe.

And YBWM is way more cringe than Love Story ari9 an overrated travesty 

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14 minutes ago, Taylor said:

is quite honestly horrible at writing choruses that don’t use staccato, and makes them seem underdeveloped. Most of her lyrics on Artpop/Joanne were non-sensical or just weak and I don’t agree that BTW is her best lyrically, that goes to The Fame and then TFM/ASIB to me. Though I’m not saying BTW is particularly horrible lyrically, just in my opinion doesn’t stand as much.

I honestly feel like she didn't write The Fame, lol. The writing quality declined that much. But taste regardless. clap3

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10 minutes ago, Merryem said:

you said "let's not go overboard especially since she was writing as a character", which is implying her songwriting had to be qualified dead2 I'm pointing out that this was illogical. let's not do this "monsters can't take criticism" talk, it makes you sound like another pressed medonster. there are a lot of valuable criticisms to be had about gaga but that just wasn't one of them lmao.

and again, i agree that Taylor has had a stronger songwriting catalogue than Gaga. but you've been saying reputation is better than ASIB which....I can't really see at all. dead2 Was ARTPOP and Joanne weaker lyrically than her previous work! Yes, just like 1989 and reputation were. also I don't get why staccato choruses suddenly a criticism because it's always been a hallmark of gaga's writing, and is one of the most iconic indicators of her pop songs. just like how taylor relies extremely heavily on narrative songs about heartbreak, gaga relies heavily on staccato choruses. it's not like her verses are the same. dead2 

 

but as you said, different strokes for different folks I guess!

The ‘monsters can’t take criticism talk’ wasn’t directed at monsters in general, it was directed at you because I feel like you take everything as a drag. Even if you don’t agree with my criticisms I’m here to tell you I don’t hate her lol, I’m just expressing my opinion and not even trying to take a dig at Gaga/the LMs and rather have a mature discussion which is often lacking on here jj2 

My whole point with the character thing was just that I feel like because she’s writing from the POV of a character it enhanced the quality of the album’s lyrics. It put her in a specific space of mind and gave her a concept to cohesively write off of, but that’s a GOOD thing. The only way I view it as negative is if her next album is cluttered and not cohesive, since I love concept albums or albums that come from a specific POV and not just scattered songs that don’t line up. If she can perform similarly in the studio (conceptually) with her next record and correct what I felt was lacking in Artpop and Joanne — which she did with ASIB — my point will be null though, which I hope happens ari9 

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7 minutes ago, Jjang said:

I honestly feel like she didn't write The Fame, lol. The writing quality declined that much. But taste regardless. clap3

I wouldn’t be shocked, I feel like Fusari and RedOne probably wrote more of the lyrics than we know ari9 I mean, the cheek she had in her lyrics back then felt so refreshing and she didn’t take herself too seriously. 

I think what many fans are dead set on is Gaga writing all her music which is actually harmful rather than helpful. If she would let other talented writers take the reigns even just sometimes, and let other people filter and enhance her lyrics the quality would probably skyrocket. There are very few artists who can do everything all by themselves and not being able to write all by yourself doesn’t make you less of an artist as many stans think. Hell, knowing what you want to say and being able to direct others who will compliment that and help make it come out more eloquently is a talent in itself interesting1 but I digress, at least ASIB was slightly better than Joanne/Artpop, and if her next record was/is being written in a specific space of mind that would be cool. She just needs a more conceptualized record again.

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13 minutes ago, Taylor said:

The ‘monsters can’t take criticism talk’ wasn’t directed at monsters in general, it was directed at you because I feel like you take everything as a drag. Even if you don’t agree with my criticisms I’m here to tell you I don’t hate her lol, I’m just expressing my opinion and not even trying to take a dig at Gaga/the LMs and rather have a mature discussion which is often lacking on here jj2 

My whole point with the character thing was just that I feel like because she’s writing from the POV of a character it enhanced the quality of the album’s lyrics. It put her in a specific space of mind and gave her a concept to cohesively write off of, but that’s a GOOD thing. The only way I view it as negative is if her next album is cluttered and not cohesive, since I love concept albums or albums that come from a specific POV and not just scattered songs that don’t line up. If she can perform similarly in the studio (conceptually) with her next record and correct what I felt was lacking in Artpop and Joanne — which she did with ASIB — my point will be null though, which I hope happens ari9 

6

Well, considering we're posting in Battlegrounds...shouldn't it be assumed that criticizing artists is meant to be a drag jj1  I never thought you hated her, I'm just disagreeing with your criticisms. You are free to express any opinion you want...I think you're really overanalyzing my "coming for gaga writing as a character" comment. dead2 

I think it's funny and sort of ridiculous that there's this weird psuedo-intellectual gatekeeping in BG lately where if you're not sitting down, dissecting, and critically analyzing every single comment made about your fave, you're suddenly unable to think rationally about your fave. Even defending your pop girlies suddenly spawns these really pretty pretentious attitudes now...it definitely was a trend started by the essays Madonna fans posted in BG in order to make their fave's work seem deeply symbolic, but a lot of members have shamelessly jumped on board with this trend for reasons I don't really know why. People just take this forum way, waay too seriously.

Anyways, if you meant it as a positive thing, that didn't come across in your original post. 

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i've read the first page and what i haven't seen mentioned is that for all we know she's worked on her debut since the moment she first grabbed a pen so she was basically sitting on the album's highlights for what could've been years. i think she really gave it all at least lyrically on and for her debut, made it big and lost inspiration for her follow-ups.

 

to that, add inevitable label pressure to churn out material every two three years and voila we're here now as the regress is quite obvious.

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59 minutes ago, Madonna said:

Looking back there's honestly more cringe in Gaga's catalogue than anything else, especially in terms of lyrics. ari9 She's incapable of writing a hook that doesn't consist of a staccato using the title of the song.

Should I go on? rih6

That last one tho ny2

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10 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I wouldn’t be shocked, I feel like Fusari and RedOne probably wrote more of the lyrics than we know ari9 I mean, the cheek she had in her lyrics back then felt so refreshing and she didn’t take herself too seriously. 

I think what many fans are dead set on is Gaga writing all her music which is actually harmful rather than helpful. If she would let other talented writers take the reigns even just sometimes, and let other people filter and enhance her lyrics the quality would probably skyrocket. There are very few artists who can do everything all by themselves and not being able to write all by yourself doesn’t make you less of an artist as many stans think. Hell, knowing what you want to say and being able to direct others who will compliment that and help make it come out more eloquently is a talent in itself interesting1 but I digress, at least ASIB was slightly better than Joanne/Artpop, and if her next record was/is being written in a specific space of mind that would be cool. She just needs a more conceptualized record again.

And then there's that "career threatening" case she closed with Fusari a few years ago, god knows about what. lana3

Agreed. 100%. 

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I really like this healthy discussion on Katy & Taylor, it's been a while since they've been compared in a non-hostile way. I think they're one of the few singer-songwriter turned pop divas we have on this site so it's interesting how they fare with crafting songs. I think both are still immensely capable of writing good songs, but lately they have a knack for their overused clichés and questionable lines nnn

 

I actually find Katy's songwriting really similar to Marina's. Feel free to drag me but a lot of One of the Boys sounds like it could've been written by TFJ-Rina if she wrote songs about relationships then dead2

 

 

 

 

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