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15 minutes ago, melomelo said:

you cant deny the impact. people now show up with S&M gear and dressed like religious leaders and make statements on the red carpet with their get ups.

looks from grammys almost 10 years later:

Celebs have been dressing weird before Gaga even debutted dead2dead2  

Spoiler

 

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20 minutes ago, STJ said:

Celebs have been dressing weird before Gaga even debutted dead2dead2  

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literally only björk is dressed “weird” in these pics dead2 

it’s fact that gaga’s outrageous outfits were the blueprint for MPGs to get weirder with how they dress. she normalized it. some girls having blocky eyeshadow or wearing a flashier than normal dress isn’t weird, it’s girls wearing a block of cheese on their head or a metallic hello kitty dress that’s weird

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3 hours ago, Jjang said:

Dude, I respect your argumentative spirit in times where not talking about your opinions is deemed as the norm but this is so wrong. brit12

Madonna's musical landscape is far more diverse than Gaga's in terms of song structure and experimentation. While Gaga merely decorates her songs with references of sub-genres, she almost always succumbs to basic and generic structures/productions/arrangements to the point where she doesn't reach any form of legitimate experimentation and remains in the "Pop song" sphere if you know what I mean.  ari5 

Madonna is more brave than Gaga in that regard. You gotta give it to her.

 

funny you mention that because i was going to make a thread touching on what you just said about gaga. i feel that gaga wants to do more fringe genre but she is afraid of the backlash should she really delve into genres that cant easily be transposed onto a pop song format. because i actually agree with you, to an extent. 

what i meant by madonna has very similar melodic structure is that she never goes for higher notes and she keeps the tempo usually slow, she has that talk-sing quality to her melodies. im not good with vocal theory, but i wouldnt be shocked that if i look up the ranges in her songs that she doesnt go far from an A4/B4. which is smart she doesnt have the strongest voice. this isnt shade. she is smart. shes not trying to convince anyone she is a vocal powerhouse. maybe this is her style and if it is im not knocking it. i was also only referring to her most mainstream known songs, the singles. i havent listened to a lot of her work. 

i do really like that song, Love Song. thats probably the most different song of hers i have heard. omg is that prince doing those adlibs in the background? did he write the song? cause it sounds a lot like his work. though do you notice what i mean even with this song? her melody is very smooth, easy, slower (like future lovers- love this song). and she doesnt do those background vocals and harmonies in the higher notes. just googled it and yup prince wrote and did vocals for the track. fuck it is good. still listening to it. i love it!

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14 minutes ago, Merryem said:

literally only björk is dressed “weird” in these pics dead2 

it’s fact that gaga’s outrageous outfits were the blueprint for MPGs to get weirder with how they dress. she normalized it. some girls having blocky eyeshadow or wearing a flashier than normal dress isn’t weird, it’s girls wearing a block of cheese on their head or a metallic hello kitty dress that’s weird

Maybe katy was inspired by Ga, but I doubt most MPGs followed her blueprint.  Nicki was probably more inspired by Lil kim's outrageous outfits back in the days: 

 

Spoiler

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Beyonce even paid tribute to a whole list of Lil kim's outfits during halloween:

Spoiler

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfrkJgAzqQIA2It57xpOC

hbz-beyonce-halloween-index-1509745773.j

 

 

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32 minutes ago, melomelo said:

funny you mention that because i was going to make a thread touching on what you just said about gaga. i feel that gaga wants to do more fringe genre but she is afraid of the backlash should she really delve into genres that cant easily be transposed onto a a pop song format. because i actually agree with you, to an extent. 

what i meant by madonna has very similar melodic structure is that she never goes for higher notes and she keeps the tempo usually slow, she has that talk-sing quality to her melodies. im not good with vocal theory, but i wouldnt be shocked that if i look up the ranges in her songs that she doesnt go far from an A4/B4. which is smart she doesnt have the strongest voice. this isnt shade. she is smart. shes not trying to convince anyone she is a vocal powerhouse. maybe this is her style and if it is im not knocking it. i was also only referring to her most mainstream known songs, the singles. i havent listened to a lot of her work. 

i do really that song, Love Song. thats probably the most different song of hers i have heard. omg is that prince doing those adlibs in the background? did he write the song? cause it sounds a lot like his work. though do you notice what i mean even with this song? her melody is very smooth, easy, slower (like future lovers- love this song). and she doesnt do those background vocals and harmonies in the higher notes. just googled it and yup prince wrote and did vocals for the track. fuck it is good. still listening to it. i love it!

But that's the thing, I want Gaga to break out of her Pop shell because she always said that's her goal and I do believe she 100% has the talent to make something as good as Ray of Light. For some reason she just always holds back and succumbs to accessible soundscapes and structures which frustrates me. Even if I enjoy ROM for instance and bop to it I still know it's beneath her (and Ari tbh) and that they both could have came up with some epic boundary pushing (for mainstream music) song. All you need to do is check her earliest demos to recognize her potential. 

 

She even said it in her Keynote interview in 2014, remember? eve1

If you don't recall, she quite directly said that she does not release her favorite & best music because she knows it will flop and only she and her friends listen to those songs. And seeing as she's a hardcore Pink Floyd, Bowie and Madonna (brit9) fan I'm inclined to think that these songs are epic. Madonna created her own label (and discovered and gave careers to artists like Alanis Morissette, for instance) when she started becoming more risky and wanted to experiment more. If Gaga can do the same, then maybe she'll reach that point. But as the leaked documents showed last month she's not thinking in that route because she signed another long ass deal with Interscope. ari7

You're in for a wild ride if you have never listened to Madonna's discography, seriously fasten your seatbeltbrit16

Madonna and Prince were friends and had mutual respect for each other. They wrote a musical together (that was never released) and he used to design clothes to her really early in her career (like 1984 or something). They wrote Love Song together and she played the keyboard herself on it. 

 

She wrote this song in its entirety almost by herself. ari8

 

She's not a trained musician, she's a trained dancer/stage performer. But so many legendary music artists are not trained either, that doesn't mean that they don't have killer instincts and brilliant work ethics in the studio. Imagine is a basic ass song but it's probably the most celebrated song of all time. Music is more than just singing high notes, keep that in mind. brit7

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17 minutes ago, STJ said:

Maybe katy was inspired by Ga, but I doubt most MPGs followed her blueprint.  Nicki was probably more inspired by Lil kim's outrageous outfits back in the days: 

 

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Beyonce even paid tribute to a whole list of Lil kim's outfits during halloween:

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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfrkJgAzqQIA2It57xpOC

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Tbh Katy I lived through Katy's 2008 era and she was definitely developing her own brand of fashion "statement" and yes it was outlandish but it definitely wasn't Gaga like stan bases made it seem like. She had that quirky, colorful and fruity mixed with sex appeal image going on for her.

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And Rihanna was definitely aiming for high fashion more than anything. She did that dark goth aesthetic (before Gaga) as a phase for Rated R and moved on.

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1 minute ago, Jjang said:

Tbh Katy I lived through Katy's 2008 era and she was definitely developing her own brand of fashion "statement" and yes it was outlandish but it definitely wasn't Gaga like stan bases made it seem like. She had that quirky, colorful and fruity mixed with sex appeal image going on for her.

These katy pics only proved further nobody was inspired by Ga. I really don't know why lil' monsters think every MPGs are inspired by their fave or that she set the trend for quirky fashion dead2  

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13 minutes ago, Jjang said:

But that's the thing, I want Gaga to break out of her Pop shell because she always said that's her goal and I do believe she 100% has the talent to make something as good as Ray of Light. For some reason she just always holds back and succumbs to accessible soundscapes and structures which frustrates me. Even if I enjoy ROM for instance and bop to it I still know it's beneath her (and Ari tbh) and that they both could have came up with some epic boundary pushing (for mainstream music) song. All you need to do is check her earliest demos to recognize her potential. 

 

She even said it in her Keynote interview in 2014, remember? eve1

If you don't recall, she quite directly said that she does not release her favorite & best music because she knows it will flop and only she and her friends listen to those songs. And seeing as she's a hardcore Pink Floyd, Bowie and Madonna (brit9) fan I'm inclined to think that these songs are epic. Madonna created her own label (and discovered and gave careers to artists like Alanis Morissette, for instance) when she started becoming more risky and wanted to experiment more. If Gaga can do the same, then maybe she'll reach that point. But as the leaked documents showed last month she's not thinking in that route because she signed another long ass deal with Interscope. ari7

You're in for a wild ride if you have never listened to Madonna's discography, seriously fasten your seatbeltbrit16

Madonna and Prince were friends and had mutual respect for each other. They wrote a musical together (that was never released) and he used to design clothes to her really early in her career (like 1984 or something). They wrote Love Song together and she played the keyboard herself on it. 

 

She wrote this song in its entirety almost by herself. ari8

 

She's not a trained musician, she's a trained dancer/stage performer. But so many legendary music artists are not trained either, that doesn't mean that they don't have killer instincts and brilliant work ethics in the studio. Imagine is a basic ass song but it's probably the most celebrated song of all time. Music is more than just singing high notes, keep that in mind. brit7

you are 100% correct. many of the most successful music artists didnt go to school and those who did dropped out, gaga herself is a college drop out. i studied music in school. but most everything i learned i learned it on my own. i knew when i started to take it seriously that studying music is kind of stupid because its an art. what is good to you may not be to someone else. i learned to play multiple instruments, primarily piano and i make my own chord progressions and melodies through midi on my macbook. anyone can do it.

if i rub gaga being a songwriter hard is because you have no idea how hard it is to get your work submitted to a record label and be signed as a songwriter/producer. you have to do so much just to get understudy or sit through recording sessions. to have your demos heard is a milestone for songwriters. getting a call back is another accomplishment on its own. someone has to take a leap of faith on your talent and even then its years before you get to write songs for notable talent. gaga went through all this before age 23. thats what i mean about her accomplishments. la reid i think stated he heard her songs and knew they would be hits and gaga had to forfeit being paid to keep her songs which ended up being her first two #1s.

and again you are correct you dont need flashy vocals, BUT they do lend themselves to very great and distinct works, i.e. bohemian rhapsody, kiss, vision of love, others you can think of as well. sticking to your comfort seldom makes memorable work, madonna knows this. 

i dont think i saw that gaga keynote, but it doesnt surprise me because when she first started she wasnt this dance pop diva. she was very much that old school heart on my sleeve songwriter. i think she morphed when she wanted to make it big. no shame, you do what you gotta do. i love dance music. and she has constantly referenced people like sting, bruce springsteen, and led zepplin. no one who loves that style of music plays safe. i think when she hit it big she was afraid of being a one hit wonder so she sticks to making music that'll fit radio. artpop was pretty experimental by the standards at the time. and in retrospect the most experimental album among her peers. you might not agree. 

i didnt know madonna and prince got along. both are very headstrong and have reputations of being hard to work with- seems like a common sign of successful people. but thank you for showing me that song. i love prince. 

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1 hour ago, STJ said:

Celebs have been dressing weird before Gaga even debutted dead2dead2  

  Hide contents

 

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23 minutes ago, Jjang said:

Tbh Katy I lived through Katy's 2008 era and she was definitely developing her own brand of fashion "statement" and yes it was outlandish but it definitely wasn't Gaga like stan bases made it seem like. She had that quirky, colorful and fruity mixed with sex appeal image going on for her.

b16691e706876d996908e84e84eab3bd.jpg

 

2008-Katy-Perry-Craziest-Style-Moments-G

 

5b7211d4a6293d3d7d5d2c5345acd32a.jpg

 

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And Rihanna was definitely aiming for high fashion more than anything. She did that dark goth aesthetic (before Gaga) as a phase for Rated R and moved on.

 

20 minutes ago, STJ said:

These katy pics only proved further nobody was inspired by Ga. I really don't know why lil' monsters think every MPGs are inspired by their fave or that she set the trend for quirky fashion dead2  

guys we are saying gaga made it popular not that she invented the concept. my god. you guys get caught up in the details. its like did madonna invent social commentary through music videos? no, but she made it popular and is the most notable act for doing it. tenor.gif

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10 minutes ago, melomelo said:

 

 

guys we are saying gaga made it popular not that she invented the concept. my god. you guys get caught up in the details. its like did madonna invent social commentary through music videos? no, but she made it popular and is the most notable for doing it. tenor.gif

Except it was already popular before Gaga came onto the scene dead2 Katy did her thing in 2008. Bjork, Celine, Xtina, Lil' Kim, and Cher did it way before Gaga was born: 

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This may not look outrageous to you now, but back then it was super controversial. 

The point is, even if Gaga never existed, celebs who like to dress eccentric will always dress eccentric, and those who don't won't (like Britney, Kelly Clarkson, Taylor swift). 

 

Gaga has nothing to do with people dressing weird nicki5 If in 10 years time, people start dressing in meat chunks, then I'll agree with you.

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1 minute ago, STJ said:

Except it was already popular before Gaga came onto the scene dead2 Katy did her thing in 2008. Bjork, Celine, Xtina, Lil' Kim, and Cher did it way before Gaga was born: 

  Hide contents

11apr1988-cher-outrageous-fashion-600-co

This may not look outrageous to you now, but back then it was super controversial. 

The point is, even if Gaga never existed, celebs who like to dress eccentric will always dress eccentric, and those who don't won't (like Britney, Kelly Clarkson, Taylor swift). 

girl no they were not. looks like cher and lil kim were maybe 1-2 a show. where as now it is the norm. gaga was essential in making this the norm. keep acting like she wasnt.

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7 minutes ago, melomelo said:

girl no they were not. looks like cher and lil kim were maybe 1-2 a show. where as now it is the norm. gaga was essential in making this the norm. keep acting like she wasnt.

That's just the natural progression of fashion itself... has nothing to do with Gaga. dead2 You don't expect people in 2020 to dress covered up or normal like back in the days... 

People want to push for boundaries, more designers pay celebs to wear their weird designs, gaga has no impact on any of these things. 

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Just now, STJ said:

That's just the natural progression of fashion itself... has nothing to do with Gaga. dead2 You don't expect people in 2020 to dress covered up or normal like back in the days... 

People want to push for boundaries, more designers pay celebs to wear their weird designs, gaga has no impact on any of these things. 

take it up with the fashion columnists beb

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/fashion/trends/g938/lady-gaga-fashion-1209/

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13 minutes ago, STJ said:

I don't want to reignite the madonna vs gaga feud but the fact that the first outfit looked so much like Madonna's one decades back dead2 says more about Madonna's influence on fashion than gaga's dead7

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edit: yes madonnas kylie's influence. her impact. her power. clap3

hehe

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Will this be the winner of the thread of the year? 

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5 hours ago, melomelo said:

because madonna at the end of the day became famous for singing... duh.

gaga6

What in the world. I don't feel like this is true. How can you say in one breath that everyone knows Madonna is a poor singer and then say she became famous for singing? brit12 I think she became famous for her songs and her act (and her personality), not her vocals.

5 hours ago, melomelo said:

since we are sharing opinions, my opinion is lady gaga will be remembered as the artist who brought singing back to the outlandish performance provocateur pop star archetype.

Eh... maybe. In a footnote. The problem is Gaga very quickly dropped her outlandish persona and her provoking performance style (no, Chromatica is a not a return) herself as soon as it stopped working to make money chi1 I mean, the last six years have been Gaga stripped down to the bare minimum. That's literally half of her career. Any formula she might have inspired for future artists didn't work for herself, so I don't see how she'll be remembered for it. I mean, of course she will be remembered for it, and will be seen as the main representative of that short period of time where pop became "weird" again, but that's different from being remembered as an outlandish pop provocateuse ICON that can stand next to figures like Grace Jones, Björk, Madonna,... She dropped the ball too soon to really make a mark outside of what happened to be trendy in 2008-2010 fall3

5 hours ago, melomelo said:

madonna is a better songwriter? ok you can say lyricism- lyrics are words and words have different meanings for different people. i am talking about composition. arrangements. musical ability. gaga has madonna beat. gaga is a trained pianist. went to school for this. was hired as a songwriter before she got a record deal. her songwriting abilities speak for themselves in terms of accomplishments. madonnas only best songwriting attribute is her lyricism- i will forfeit that for the sake of your argument. all of madonnas songs span very very very similar arrangements and melody structure- they have too because madonna doesnt have the vocal ability to try and make a song like shallow. look what happened with ray of light live.

Cackle. I mean, I don't really mind this response because it just shows you haven't listened to a lot of Madonna songs (which you literally admit anyway, so). You're in for a ride then, lol gaga12 I get your point. I really do. I used to think that way too. But then I just kept waiting for Gaga to unleash that trained pianist musician talent and... we're still stuck with Stupid Loves and Fun Tonights, aka extremely safe and fundamentally unambitious radio pop that many of her peers have already trumped in terms of originality and experimentation lol3 Her discography is shockingly weak compared to the talent she does claim to possess. She only has like a handful of songs (I'm thinking of her very good ballads like Brown Eyes, Speechless, Dope,...) that are "serious"ly written enough to prove she is a good songwriter. The fact that she keeps working (more and more, I might add) with professional songwriters or other artists doesn't help either. If she was this Bowie-esque songwriter genius she would've made an album that reflected that already instead of running to BloodPop or Max Martin to fix her own ideas oprah6 That's not how Madonna worked, ever, in her prime.

Also, Shallow is an extremely typical, unoriginal rock ballad. It's very well written, but... who cares if Madonna doesn't have a song like that lol. Meanwhile I can easily name 20 Madonna songs and music videos ánd performances I know for a fact every LM wishes were in Gaga's career whit1

5 hours ago, melomelo said:

 

2010-grammys-redcarpet.jpg

you cant deny the impact. people now show up with S&M gear and dressed like religious leaders and make statements on the red carpet with their get ups.

looks from grammys almost 10 years later:

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200126185225-16-grammy-red-carpet-fashio

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I mean, you're half right. Gaga made red carpets exciting again, just like Joan Rivers made people talk about them at all, I'll give credit where it's due (even though in this case that's with the designers—90% of all of Gaga's looks, especially post-2009, are exact replicas of looks that were already shown in fashion weeks in their respective years). She made collaborating with more daring designers more popular, which in turn pushed other designers to design more outlandish and "weird" pieces. That is undeniable indeed. She lit that match. But then, once again, she dropped the ball and now other artists are getting bigger "outrageous fashion looks" lists than she is oprah4 It was just a trick for her to gain mass momentum and when it didn't translate into instant success anymore she dropped it. She didn't stick to her guns and develop her antics (or replace them with something substantial, not just act all Hollywood celebrity and looking the part like she was completely out of ideas), which is why her "impact" with those antics is questionable to bring up time and time again. That's like Madonna fans still bragging about the cone bra. We know. She's famous for it but she's also famous for 1000 other things, chill. I can't say the same about Gaga. The fact that her fans still have to brag about impact she had and then lost six (more like eight) friggin' years ago is just sad for them. She should've done more in the meantime to deserve her spot among the icons.

Anyway, I'm really liking this conversation jj2 Not half as pointless or delusional an exchange as I'm used to. Crediting Madge for everything is tiring anyway. At the end of the day the proof is in the quality of her work itself, not her outer accolades or whatever.  I quit being a fan of Gaga because I could sense that she was more comfortable simply talking about the fact that she listens to Pink Floyd and Bowie instead of making music that is anywhere near them in terms of quality. Gaga's discography will be almost an appendix to how people talk about her career and that's a shame. And a con.

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I thought this thread was going to be a delusional mess but honestly it turned into a pretty nice conversation.

 

It's good to know that Little Monsters and Madonna fans can try to listen to each other while still defending their fave.

 

Anyways my take on this is that Gaga is extremely talented in all of the right way to make real pieces of art with clear statements and her own true personality it. Unfortunately, she wants to play it safe and nothing's wrong with that! The Fame is basically the blueprint of the late 00s, early 10s electropop sound. She's shown moments of greatness with her music videos and some of her songs, and was memorable for her style.

 

The problem stems mostly from the fact that, she never truly did anything with the cards she has. Who is Gaga really? If the answer is just "weird" well then two responses to that.

 

One: a lot of artists are weird as hell, so what is Gaga's specific brand of weird?

Two: she clearly hasn't done the "weird" branding for a while and her most recent attempts (Enigma, Chromatica kind of?) don't come close to her older ones.

Gaga can sing well, play piano, write music, has shown to have a clear vision for what she wants to do when she wants to do it, can perform so why doesn't her music reflect all of this? The closest she's gotten was Born This Way, but how does that compare to the likes of Madonna in her prime? Or legends she's clearly inspired by?

 

How does her impact compare to those in their prime?

 

I don't mean these as "Madonna good, Gaga bad" at all either, I genuinely wonder how she stacks up. Because despite clearly being very talented, why doesn't that translate to the same type of undeniable impact or acclaim the way others have? Why is this always something up for debate?

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12 hours ago, melomelo said:

edit: yes madonnas kylie's influence. her impact. her power. clap3

Kylie actually set the fashion trend for many outfits, so you didn't lie. 

This one being the perfect example:

fafabd64113e29b70d7a4901828a3659.jpg

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